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A Dance With Dragons

  • ashamanAJSV said... (original post)

    Like just about everyone else, started reading the series after the HBO season ended. Maybe it's just the pace at which I read it, but did anyone else almost get tired of the plot structure? No spoilers, but after reading "they're captured...they've escaped!...they're on the run...they're captured again" for the 20th time, I kinda stopped caring. Still good, just repetitive is all.

    This . . . does not end well.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • The_Dude said... (original post)

    Well, I just finished Dance. What a fuck up of an ending, couldn't think of a worse way to piss people off.

    It's definitely not gonna make the wait for the next volume very easy. I think it created more questions than it answered.

  • The_Dude said... (original post)

    It's definitely not gonna make the wait for the next volume very easy. I think it created more questions than it answered.

    Yep.

    SPOILER ALERT

    I just don't see any fathomable way that Jon Snow is honestly dead. I mean he got shanked a bunch of times, but there is no plot on the Wall with him and Stannis both dead. Too important with the Others and Snow's character for him to die.

    At least I hope. pray

  • The_Dude said... (original post)

    Yep.

    SPOILER ALERT

    I just don't see any fathomable way that Jon Snow is honestly dead. I mean he got shanked a bunch of times, but there is no plot on the Wall with him and Stannis both dead. Too important with the Others and Snow's character for him to die.

    At least I hope. pray

    He's probably Azor reborn. Melisandre's visions seem to point to him coming back and we all ready know red priests can basically resurrect the recently dead.

  • Seer said... (original post)

    He's probably Azor reborn. Melisandre's visions seem to point to him coming back and we all ready know red priests can basically resurrect the recently dead.

    Yeah that would make sense, I guess. Kind of glad Quentyn died, I never saw Dany marrying him. Not sure what is going to happen with the Iron Fleet, I don't see Dany marrying Victarion either.

  • The_Dude said... (original post)

    Yeah that would make sense, I guess. Kind of glad Quentyn died, I never saw Dany marrying him. Not sure what is going to happen with the Iron Fleet, I don't see Dany marrying Victarion either.

    She was warned about the Kraken in one of her visions. Still, he's a total badass and has the dragon horn. OTOH, the Greyjoys don't strike me as very good at making these kinds of political marriages.

  • I thought the whole series got dragged out a bit. And yes, I will buy the next one. I wished they would have done more with Arya(she better be bad ass) in the next book.

  • MSUPosse said... (original post)

    I thought the whole series got dragged out a bit. And yes, I will buy the next one. I wished they would have done more with Arya(she better be bad ass) in the next book.

    What if Arya went to Casterly rock and snuffed out Cersei? That would be awesome. With the horn Victarion has, no mortal can blow into it and live, right? Or can only a blood of the dragon (Dany or Aegon) use it? Also, what does it do? Controls dragons?

    I liked the epilogue, with Varys snuffing Pycelle and Kevan.

  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    This . . . does not end well.

    Meaning I shouldn't have criticized Martin?

    After finishing ADWD, though, I stand by my comments. I about threw the book when Tyrion was captured and THEN enslaved. And while I understand that Martin's MO is to keep the reader on his toes, not knowing when any character might meet an untimely end, ultimately it's just not good storytelling to systematically remove every character the reader might have any strong opinion toward (positive or negative).

    The way I look at it, there's absolutely no point in writing a series if majority of the central characters aren't presented in the first book. Well, who of the primary characters from AGOT are still of even remote consequence? Jon was the only Stark that's done anything since book 3, and he's either dead or the future product of an absurd deus ex machina. Of the Lannisters still alive, Tyrion's been worthless since book 2 and is now a sellsword (?), Cersei's de-clawed, and Jaime has never really been central to the action. Daenerys is really the only character that's still active, but it seems increasingly likely that her plotline is just killing time until Martin decides to bring her to Westeros.

    I like plot twists, and I like character evolution. But five books in, there are increasingly few characters that I give a damn about, and I'm really starting to wonder if Martin has any idea where he's going with this.

    /rant

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  • ashamanAJSV said... (original post)

    Meaning I shouldn't have criticized Martin?

    After finishing ADWD, though, I stand by my comments. I about threw the book when Tyrion was captured and THEN enslaved. And while I understand that Martin's MO is to keep the reader on his toes, not knowing when any character might meet an untimely end, ultimately it's just not good storytelling to systematically remove every character the reader might have any strong opinion toward (positive or negative).

    The way I look at it, there's absolutely no point in writing a series if majority of the central characters aren't presented in the first book. Well, who of the primary characters from AGOT are still of even remote consequence? Jon was the only Stark that's done anything since book 3, and he's either dead or the future product of an absurd deus ex machina. Of the Lannisters still alive, Tyrion's been worthless since book 2 and is now a sellsword (?), Cersei's de-clawed, and Jaime has never really been central to the action. Daenerys is really the only character that's still active, but it seems increasingly likely that her plotline is just killing time until Martin decides to bring her to Westeros.

    I like plot twists, and I like character evolution. But five books in, there are increasingly few characters that I give a damn about, and I'm really starting to wonder if Martin has any idea where he's going with this.

    /rant

    Uhh, calm down. I was saying that the story does not end well for those who are captured then run away.

    As for criticizing Martin, go ahead. It's not for everyone. To me, it's much more like War and Peace, where it's telling the entire story of a country, rather than focusing on just one family/set of characters. In that respect, there's no reason to get upset about characters dying/being irrelevant; the story just continues on.

    It's much more realistic; it's boring when there's no real danger to the main characters, or even if they get wounded, they recover. I really hope Snow isn't dead, cause he's awesome, but if he dies, the story will just go on. I honestly don't see how he's going to wrap this up in just 7 books though.

    Unless the series ends with Daenerys setting foot in Westeros. Which would be super lame. For some reason I always thought she'd end up with Jon Snow.

    This post was edited by MalibuMan 3 years ago

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • Seer said... (original post)

    She was warned about the Kraken in one of her visions. Still, he's a total badass and has the dragon horn. OTOH, the Greyjoys don't strike me as very good at making these kinds of political marriages.

    No . . . but they're awesome at doing things like smashing a blockade of ships biggrin

    I also love how the Free Cities just have a bunch of hired armies that are mostly pansies. And those slave armies (non-Unsullied) are super weak too.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • I finished the book this summer and liked it, although not to the extent of the 1st 3. Martin said the original plan was to tell this part of the story in flashbacks. After Storm he realized this was impossible, so he started a book that became too long and was broke into 2 parts. Knowing this I didn't expect much out of either of these books. Hopefully the next book will be out sooner and do more to move the story along.

  • SBSpartan

    I just started the series and have a lot if reading to do.

    This country was built by people who worked hard then went home and had just a few too many every night. Then went back to work.

  • SpartanRocky said... (original post)

    Uhh, calm down. I was saying that the story does not end well for those who are captured then run away.

    As for criticizing Martin, go ahead. It's not for everyone. To me, it's much more like War and Peace, where it's telling the entire story of a country, rather than focusing on just one family/set of characters. In that respect, there's no reason to get upset about characters dying/being irrelevant; the story just continues on.

    It's much more realistic; it's boring when there's no real danger to the main characters, or even if they get wounded, they recover. I really hope Snow isn't dead, cause he's awesome, but if he dies, the story will just go on. I honestly don't see how he's going to wrap this up in just 7 books though.

    Unless the series ends with Daenerys setting foot in Westeros. Which would be super lame. For some reason I always thought she'd end up with Jon Snow.

    My bad, definitely should've separated the two comments. I asked the question because I wasn't sure if you were saying the series wouldn't go well for me, or if the resulting comments wouldn't go well. The rant was meant to be off to the side, and only came because I finished ADWD last night and had no one to talk about it with.

    Your point about realism vs. boredom has been something I've wondered about for a while. It definitely always seems kinda lame that main characters can never die, bad guys are never good shots, etc. But then you have to think that in general (especially in the case of a POV story), the story's only being told BECAUSE the protagonist survived or was at least influential. That is to say, it's the fact that they survived that MAKES them protagonists, not the other way around.

    ASOIAF is a bit confusing for me as a result. It's pretty damn rare to have a sweeping story like this, trying to encompass an entire world, but also to tell it from the POV of characters whose stories end abruptly or ultimately have no relevance. That is, if you wanted to tell the story of the Civil War from multiple perspectives, you'd pick generals, or leaders, or soldiers who happened to be in most of the key battles. But you wouldn't initially set your story around the lives of people who died 12 months in, only to introduce completely new characters. If any of that made sense.

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  • I went ahead against peoples advice and read online what happens to most of the characters. All I can say is.....

    SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS BELOW!!!!!!!

    Ugh! That really sucks about Robb and Jon. Jaime does not get near the commupence he deserves. Can anyone tell me what becomes of the other Stark children?

    signature image
  • Actually Martin often uses POVs who aren't often making the decisions. Cersei's story (A Clash of Kings) is told through Sansa, Stannis through Davos, and once Danys leaves the aftermath of Meeran is left to Selmy. Even Jon did this as Mormont's steward. Bringing on new POVs like Cersei and Jaime brought great insights into hated characters. I never thought I would root for Jaime. Now the Greyjoy chapters, I'm not seeing why yet, although Theon/Reek had great chapters.

  • greenbayspartan said... (original post)

    I went ahead against peoples advice and read online what happens to most of the characters. All I can say is.....

    SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS BELOW!!!!!!!

    Ugh! That really sucks about Robb and Jon. Jaime does not get near the commupence he deserves. Can anyone tell me what becomes of the other Stark children?

    Sansa is in the Vale, and Baelish is arranging her to marry the heir to the Vale once the boy Robert somehow dies, and then Baelish is going to unveil the Stark wolf at her wedding.

    Davos was sent on a mission by fat Manderly to find Rickon and bring him back. All we know is Rickon is somewhere that even Davos is frightened to go...probably somewhere like Skagos.

    Arya is in Braavos undergoing her training as a faceless man.

    Bran is North of the wall.

  • sparty37 said... (original post)

    Actually Martin often uses POVs who aren't often making the decisions. Cersei's story (A Clash of Kings) is told through Sansa, Stannis through Davos, and once Danys leaves the aftermath of Meeran is left to Selmy. Even Jon did this as Mormont's steward. Bringing on new POVs like Cersei and Jaime brought great insights into hated characters. I never thought I would root for Jaime. Now the Greyjoy chapters, I'm not seeing why yet, although Theon/Reek had great chapters.

    Cheering for Jaime? Really? God I want him dead. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

    signature image
  • sparty37 said... (original post)

    Actually Martin often uses POVs who aren't often making the decisions. Cersei's story (A Clash of Kings) is told through Sansa, Stannis through Davos, and once Danys leaves the aftermath of Meeran is left to Selmy. Even Jon did this as Mormont's steward. Bringing on new POVs like Cersei and Jaime brought great insights into hated characters. I never thought I would root for Jaime. Now the Greyjoy chapters, I'm not seeing why yet, although Theon/Reek had great chapters.

    Agreed.

    Also, RE: Jon Snow, I am 95% certain he doesn't die. This is because Martin usually will make it VERY clear when someone gets snuffed, if he leaves it hanging usually mean they are alive. If Jon dies, there just isn't a plot at the Wall anymore and there is wayyyy too much going on there to ignore it. Stannis is more than likely dead, even though no concrete proof has been offered.

    Snow either survives his wounds, or becomes Azor Ahai. Dany's plot has been dragging sooo much the past few books, the only good chapter of hers imo were the last two. I hoped she would have been sailing to Westeros by now.

    Also, to the person who didn't like Tyrion becoming a slave, why not? That was awesome...and it was short lived. That is why Martin is an awesome writer, because of shit like that.

  • greenbayspartan said... (original post)

    Cheering for Jaime? Really? God I want him dead. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

    Yeah, some people cheer for him now, others are still on the fence or don't like him. How far in the series are you? He becomes a very likeable character.

  • Jaime strikes me as an ass who realizes the error of his ways, but it's too late. Life catches up with you, he's in store for some tragedy.

  • Misterray

    ashamanAJSV said... (original post)

    My bad, definitely should've separated the two comments. I asked the question because I wasn't sure if you were saying the series wouldn't go well for me, or if the resulting comments wouldn't go well. The rant was meant to be off to the side, and only came because I finished ADWD last night and had no one to talk about it with.

    Your point about realism vs. boredom has been something I've wondered about for a while. It definitely always seems kinda lame that main characters can never die, bad guys are never good shots, etc. But then you have to think that in general (especially in the case of a POV story), the story's only being told BECAUSE the protagonist survived or was at least influential. That is to say, it's the fact that they survived that MAKES them protagonists, not the other way around.

    ASOIAF is a bit confusing for me as a result. It's pretty damn rare to have a sweeping story like this, trying to encompass an entire world, but also to tell it from the POV of characters whose stories end abruptly or ultimately have no relevance. That is, if you wanted to tell the story of the Civil War from multiple perspectives, you'd pick generals, or leaders, or soldiers who happened to be in most of the key battles. But you wouldn't initially set your story around the lives of people who died 12 months in, only to introduce completely new characters. If any of that made sense.

    translation:

    You don't understand or agree with what he's doing.

    The fact that he kills off main characters is one of several CENTRAL elements to the value and quality of this series.

    The result is EVERY time a character is in danger, you have to take it seriously unlike most other CRAP fantasy or adventure where you don't worry for a second about supposedly exciting or dangerous events.

    The deaths of Eddard and Robb do not mean that their stories have no relevance. That is the sort of simple minded reasoning that is appropriate for children's literature. This series is for adults. Who gives a crap when some red-shirt dies in a story? No one...In this series, some deaths matter. And that's GOOD.

    I understand that some people can't handle this sort of story telling. The same people wailed and pulled their hair when Wash died in Serenity. If you don't like it, then Martin isn't writing for you.

    He's writing for the sort of reader who WANTS this sort of complexity; who WANTS danger to matter in a story; who is excited by the punch to the gut when a beloved character dies....BECAUSE they care about that character and so the death MATTERS.

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    --- --- "If you want to be the Man, then you have got to BE the Man." -- CA Sparty's Dad

  • Misterray said... (original post)

    translation:

    You don't understand or agree with what he's doing.

    The fact that he kills off main characters is one of several CENTRAL elements to the value and quality of this series.

    The result is EVERY time a character is in danger, you have to take it seriously unlike most other CRAP fantasy or adventure where you don't worry for a second about supposedly exciting or dangerous events.

    The deaths of Eddard and Robb do not mean that their stories have no relevance. That is the sort of simple minded reasoning that is appropriate for children's literature. This series is for adults. Who gives a crap when some red-shirt dies in a story? No one...In this series, some deaths matter. And that's GOOD.

    I understand that some people can't handle this sort of story telling. The same people wailed and pulled their hair when Wash died in Serenity. If you don't like it, then Martin isn't writing for you.

    He's writing for the sort of reader who WANTS this sort of complexity; who WANTS danger to matter in a story; who is excited by the punch to the gut when a beloved character dies....BECAUSE they care about that character and so the death MATTERS.

    There also really isn't any "good vs. evil". It's more the Lannisters trying to hold on vs. the people plotting to put the Targaryens back in power. There are some good Lannisters, and some bad ones, some good people on the side of the Targaryens and some bad.

    Characters like Ramsey Bolton are awesome for as story like this. He's an absolute sicko who's pretty much getting to do whatever he wants and is coming out on top. THAT is an antagonist.

    I also don't believe Jon Snow is dead. Too much talk about who his mother is, "Born amid salt & smoke" could refer to him, etc.

    Then again, I also think that Tyrion is going to end up riding a dragon before it's all said and done. All the talk about him loving them growing up, the fact that there are 2 dragons sitting in Mereen . . . . . yea.

    Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.

  • The_Dude said... (original post)

    Yeah, some people cheer for him now, others are still on the fence or don't like him. How far in the series are you? He becomes a very likeable character.

    I have only watched the first season of GoT and have never read the books. I did read about some of the characters on Wikipedia hence I know what happens to Rob Stark.

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  • Misterray said... (original post)

    translation:

    You don't understand or agree with what he's doing.

    The fact that he kills off main characters is one of several CENTRAL elements to the value and quality of this series.

    The result is EVERY time a character is in danger, you have to take it seriously unlike most other CRAP fantasy or adventure where you don't worry for a second about supposedly exciting or dangerous events.

    The deaths of Eddard and Robb do not mean that their stories have no relevance. That is the sort of simple minded reasoning that is appropriate for children's literature. This series is for adults. Who gives a crap when some red-shirt dies in a story? No one...In this series, some deaths matter. And that's GOOD.

    I understand that some people can't handle this sort of story telling. The same people wailed and pulled their hair when Wash died in Serenity. If you don't like it, then Martin isn't writing for you.

    He's writing for the sort of reader who WANTS this sort of complexity; who WANTS danger to matter in a story; who is excited by the punch to the gut when a beloved character dies....BECAUSE they care about that character and so the death MATTERS.

    I'm not entirely sure why the insults were necessary, but I think you missed my point here (or I did a poor job explaining it). My complaint wasn't that main characters die, nor did I say their deaths made them irrelevant. Hell, I loved that he set up Eddard as the main protagonist in AGOT before killing him; false protagonists are a relatively common literary technique, and in this case it did a fantastic job of forcing the reader to realize that this story would be about much more than the saga of one man.

    My complaint is that the series began essentially with 3 groups of characters--the Starks, the Lannisters, and Daenerys/Drogo/etc--and of all of them, only Daenerys (possibly Jon, depends if he's dead) has remained relevant to the storyline. Otherwise it's completely new characters that were gradually added, but in literature it gets continually harder to create rich and compelling characters as the story progresses.

    If you'd grant me some slight hyperbole, there'd be a difference between one retelling Lord of the Rings where Frodo dies partway through (could probably be pretty cool), and a second retelling in which the entire Fellowship gets knocked off and the story instead shifts to Rohan. If the Rohirrim were going to be responsible for the concluding events, why wouldn't you present them at the beginning along with the Fellowship?

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