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I think he had a great career that could have been even better. I don't think he was ever able to recover all of his athleticism. Traumatic back injuries are bad news to an athlete, plus if you remember Cleaves was not the best shooter. Did the lack of a summer to work on his game cost him that shot development. Missing a summer of strength and conditioning certainly didn't help.
When it comes down to it, only Cleaves can really answer any of these questions.
Um probably cheated to put this team together........The total lack of ethics and moral character is inherent at that university.....
This post was edited by GTASpartan87 17 months ago
"No one cares what you know, until they know how much you care." Mark Dantonio
The Fab Five did accomplish the biggest cheating in NCAA basketball history.
Question authority. Power to the people
He just wasn't enough of a scoring threat to make it in the NBA.
Tough to say how the accident impacted that. There are many great high school (and even college) players whose games just don't translate well to the NBA. Torbert for instance...man among boys in high school, but his athleticism didn't carry over to the NBA (or even to the college level to some extent).
Dude - you missed the whole story.
I hate to keep quoting SiriumXM, but today on College Sports Nation was nearly all UM-Indiana and I travel a ton for work, so I am in the car a lot!
Anyway, Mark Packer had Ray Jackson and Jimmy King on. Mark Packer said "You know, I was watching the Arkansas game last night and I knew you guys were going to be on and Bob Knight went on about a 2 minute tirade toward Reece Davis saying that the Fab 5 never won anything, so why do they call them Fab and comments such as that. Knowing we were going to have you on, I thought about what it would be like to see your faces as he made those comments and what you were thinking, so here is your chance. How do you respond to coach Knight"
One of the two (I think Ray) said: "Well, first of all, yes, we didnt win any Big Ten Championships and we never won a national championship, but to say we didn't win anything is not true. We won hearts! We won a culture! We won respect! And still to this day, people who were following college basketball at the time tell me how much they enjoyed watching us play."
The roads were messy in Grand Rapids which made the fact that I was laughing to the point of tears in my eyes damn near casued me to create a huge wreck at the 1-196/US-131 Interchange.
"WE WON HEARTS!!! WE WON A CULTURE!! WE WON RESPECT!!"
I am going to search for that sound bite on these interwebs for a while... HILARIOUS!!!!
WE WON A CULTURE!!!! FUCK CHAMPIONSHIPS, WE WON RESPECT!!!!!
Thank you, Denicos.
What a delusional bunch of assbags.
Posting member of tRCMB since 1997.
It is ALWAYS a great day to be a Spartan!!!!
I think 5 years of MSU basketball season tickets while I was in school should prove than I'm not a Michigan fan. I just don't abhor and detest the fab five like a lot of you do. Sure they cheated like gangbusters but so did Tark's Running Rebels and and I enjoyed watching those squads play back in the day. It was a fun style of basketball to watch.
As I've mentioned on here before, the michigan basketball scandal was beyond massive. As others have pointed out, they basically got caught once the FBI became involved, and the penalties were relatively light considering. The NCAA wanted this to go away quickly and both scum and the NCAA lucked out when Ed Martin died.....supposedly of natural causes. I'm not saying it wasn't natural, but it sure was convenient.
How big was this scandal? We know of the money given to players, the benefits etc. But IMO, it goes much deeper, even to the point of fixing the national championship game.
Ed Martin ran an illegal numbers racket in the auto factories. To say that a multi-million dollar gambling enterprise was unknown to the organized crime in Detroit is naive. In the NC game, I actually believe there may have been two opposing 'fix' in play. First, Weber travels, yet, NO CALL. Millions upon millions of people see this but the guys in the black and white stripes DO NOT and no call is made. Now Weber at this point then calls a time out he does not have. TWO sixth grade basketball mistakes in a matter of 6 seconds in the NC game? No way. The time out call, however, forced the refs to make a call, killing that fix.
Also, when the first stories of these guys getting improper benefits broke, one of my friends was involved. The story was in the paper etc etc etc. A VERY well known newspaper reporter warned her , "be careful, you don't know what these people are capable of."
The NCAA and michigan needed this thing to go away. Tax evasion, illegal gifts, illegal number games, organized crime, fixing of games etc etc etc. I've always thought a great study would be to get the old lines of games and then review game film of them to see if any funny stuff was going on during the regular season. Anyway, scum fans should be thankful for Penn State, they were probably the only winners in that scandal.
See my game worn MSU jersey website. www.msujerseys.com
What did you think when some members of the Fab Five wiped their asses across the "S" at center court of Breslin?
The difference is the actions of Tark's teams did not directly affect the fortunes of MSU. The difference is UNLV never professed themselves a bastion of righteous superiority. Were you an MSU fan in the 80's? Grant (paid for), Joubert (paid for), Tarpley (paid for with cocaine), Mills (paid for) Higgins (paid for)), Webber (paid for), Rose (paid for) , Taylor (paid for), Bullock (paid for). MSU and Jud had to compete with the deck stacked against them, and the results showed on the court. Michigan was filthy dirty long before during and after the Frauds. and now their fans are trying to downplay the largest pay-for-play scandal in NCAA history because they are still clinging to that self-righteous superiority.
Yes, cause nothing says proof like bullish**t claims by an anonymous internet poster.
I met the brother of a person VERY close to the UM program during that time. I met the dude when I was bombed at a party. So I asked him. "Dude, you know who killed Ed Martin, don't you?" His reply was "No, but my brother does."
Want me to take a picture of my Michigan State diploma dipshit? The f***. Some of you tards have nothing better to do than to bark up invisible trees. I was at the end of middle school when the fab five came to be. Forgive that I didn't hate them with the strength of a thousand swords like some of you did and do. That's great because you have every right to but it doesn't make me any less Green that I don't. And **** you if you think it does :)
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Bronco_Bahma 17 months ago
LMAO! Look at this Michigan fan back track and try to continue his claim of being a Spartan. He is a Western Michigan dude, a walverine posing.
The accident impacted his scoring and everything else about his game. Think about how much more of a threat he could have been if he could blow by people and dunk in traffic. Maybe more lift on the jumper makes him a better threat to score from outside.
I think that without the roll over Mateen is two and out at MSU and plays 10 years in the league.
Do you like how the current Michigan team plays too?
Go Red Wings!
As sure as I write this, back in the 1980's I was at a house party in Shelby Township and Gary Grant was there. The party was at the house of a girl who was a UM cheerleader at the time. My friend pushed him on the whole what's the deal with recruiting, he said well, OSU offered to buy his mom a house. My friend, a huge UM supporter to this day, said fine, but whaty did UM do for you. He respoonded with, I'm not saying anything, but I have a porsche outside with a phone it. This was the 80's when phones in a car were just starting to go.
This post was edited by vator88 17 months ago
Pics of cheerleader?
Pile on? That implies someone else is getting on them. That team has been granted one of the great free passes in history.
Anyone. Anyplace. Anytime.
Was he a good outside shooter in high school? I have no idea, but I'm guessing not...or he never had to because he just drove the lane. He had a great college career. While he may have been able to blow by people and dunk in traffic in high school, he never would have been tall enough to do that in the NBA. Compare him to Torbert...he could jump through the roof in high school and college, and was a man among boys in high school. Mateen was somewhat similar. Big kid, but did he have enough hops and a shot to make it in the NBA? Mateen was an All-American, and a Big Ten POY, but that didn't translate to the NBA. Would he really have been that much greater? Look at Skiles. He wasn't super fast, but he could shoot. I don't think Mateen ever had a great shot.
Knight probably wants to choke the Fab Five one by one.
This post was edited by y2kMgrad 17 months ago
I don't know if you got to see Mateen play in high school before the accident, but he was never on the receiving end of an alley-oop again. If one only saw him after the accident, one might wonder how difficult it was for him to dunk, whereas in high school there was no question whatsoever. So the accident certainly cost him, certainly during his freshman year, and probably from that point on. Mateen also sued for damages resulting from the crash. Of course we'll never know just how much it cost him in total, but I don't believe that there is any doubt that Mateen suffered from that accident. So once again, thanks UM!
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