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My view of Brady as a QB is that he is elite when it comes to making good decisions and spreading the ball around, but his arm, itself, is merely average. The Patriots have designed a system around his strengths, which has put up some awesome numbers the last 5 years, but strong downfield throws at the end of games will always be limited by his average arm. Still, his peak year(s) compared to the peak years of the other QBs listed should put him the top 5.
Brady is a top 5 QB of all time with 3 Superbowl wins. This loss didn't tarnish his legacy. It cost him an opportunity to enhance it, but in no way does it tarnish it.
Posting member of tRCMB since 1997.
It is ALWAYS a great day to be a Spartan!!!!
There are too many variables in a football game to put it in such absolute terms. Welker catches that pass, NYG recover 3 fumbles, couple other drops, etc. So much luck involved. It all comes down to one random bounce and we would be talking about 4 SB rings for Brady. Instead Eli is being talked about as being the better Manning QB.
Oh cool, someone with common sense.
Football is a crazy game. The Patriots have gone 29-3 in the regular seasons of their last two Super Bowl seasons, and had a 14-2 season in between. Asante Samuel makes a routine interception, they win. David Tyree doesn't make a miracle catch, they win. Giants don't recover all of their own fumbles, New England probably wins. THAT's the margin of error that is exposing Brady as a fraud?
Don't take that as a knock against the Giants, either. These days, the difference between winning the Super Bowl can literally be making or not making one play. The Giants made the play that mattered. In 2007 it was Tyree/Samuel. In 2011 it was Manningham/Welker.
Agree. He has taken them to five Super Bowls. [Response to By-Tor]
This post was edited by Ron_in_ATL 2 years ago
3 SB wins and 5 SB appearances....um hell effin no his legacy isn't tarnished.
If anything Peyton Manning's legacy is dwindling now that little bro has more SB rings than him.
Fair, but it works both ways. Again, if the Patriots have a proper call made against them with the tuck rule. If Vinatieri misses a couple kicks. Brady has been good/great in SBs. But it was Vinatieri's kicks that sealed the deal, not a GW TD throw by Brady.
Brady is no fraud, he is an all time great. But the line between 3 titles and 5 is just as close as the line between 3 and 0.
Peyton is going take the fins to the SB and win. Setting up an epic battle with younger bro in a few years to see who can win 3!
But you can say that about a million different Super Bowls. Game-changing (and sometimes lucky) plays aren't exclusive to the Patriots. What if James Harrison is pushed out of bounds before the goalline? What if Scott Norwood makes a kick? What if Santonio Holmes doesn't get his feet down? What if Kevin Dyson gets another yard? What if the Saints don't recover the surprise onside kick? What if any number of incredible Aaron Rogers passes drift an inch in the wrong direction?
You say "they won because they were announced as a team. Now they're stuck in a rut with Brady. Belicheck can't rebuild a defense."
Are you kidding? They've lost two Super Bowls by a combined seven points, held their opponent to 19 points per game, and gave up the winning scores in the waning minutes! Can we stop acting like they've been getting their asses handed to them?
Not only this but when joe Namath surpassed Johnny Unitas, Unitas took a hit even though past his prime.
Dr Opti, providing wisdom;one message at a time.
The original question was is his legacy tarnished. I replied with "if his legacy is greatest qb of all time", then yes. One of the popular media stories has been "if Tom Brady wins this one is he the best ever".
Well, if you are trying to compare Tom Brady and Fran Tarkenton/Jim Kelly/Trent Dilfer/etc, then it is easy to make the case. When you are comparing him to Elway/Favre/Montana/Unitas it gets a little tougher and you have to start getting REALLY specific. And all the little things come into play. Like spygate. Like losing (again) to the Giants, a 9-7 team with no run game. Yes, you have to make big plays, and things have to go your way to win. But when people say Brady should/could be 5/5 it can just as easily be 1/5 or 0/5.
Bottom line in these last 2 Patriots SBs. Manning got it done with late game heroics, Brady did not. The Patriots were not good enough on defense to stop Eli from marching up the field to score. They were not good enough on offense to put the game out of reach or get their own game winning score at the end. People asked if Manning's legacy would be tarnished if he had never gotten past the Patriots? Well, what if the Patriots can't get past little brother Eli?
The Patriots defense has been mediocre for a couple years now. That is not my opinion, that is fact. They got rid of "star" players and veterans like Seymour. "Stuck in a rut with Brady" might sound bad, but it isn't. That rut will make them a contender every year. Getting some defense will make them champions again. Because, as evidenced by the last 8 years, Brady isn't enough.
You want to diminish the reasons I gave for why the Patriots have lost. But what are you countering with? They only lost by 7 combined? How many do you need to lose by?
How many do you need to win by? If you lose Super Bowls by three and four points, you're one score away. You're as close as you can possibly get to winning a Super Bowl without taking home the trophy. You had to either A) win three playoff games or B) earn a bye and win two playoff games just to get there. So are the Patriots really floundering with an aging quarterback? Is their defense too mediocre to win a Super Bowl?
Or does it really just come down to the fact that the Giants made one or two extra plays, and that was the difference?
There are quite a few championship-caliber teams in the NFL every year. If a handful of plays in the last few weeks go the other way, the Saints or 49ers or Ravens could have won the Super Bowl. The teams at the top are so close, and the margin between winning and losing is so incremental, that it's ridiculous to suggest that the Patriots aren't capable of winning it all.
They are capable. They got to the Super Bowl. They made it to Game No. 267 and had a chance to win in the final minutes. That's all any modern NFL team can ask for in August.
The stat that was on the screen last night that I thought was interesting was that Tom Brady has 3 game-winning fourth-quarter drives in the Super Bowl. In other words, in all three of his Super Bowl wins, he had to engineer a game-winning drive at the end in order to win.
First, that does indicate that he can (or could) perform well in the clutch.
Second, it indicates that all of his Super Bowls were squeakers. If you need a fourth-quarter game-winning drive, it means that if one or two plays had gone a different way, the outcome could have been different. Looking back over the five Super Bowls Brady has played in, he realistically could have any number of rings between zero and five.
Looking at his career so far, there's absolutely no doubt that he's a first-ballot hall of famer. He's played in 5 SBs, won 3, won two Super Bowl MVPs, has piled up huge statistical numbers, led the Pats in an unbeaten regular-season campaign, etc. But is he going to go down as one of the best all time? Who knows. Imagine if Eli, Peyton, Rogers, and Brees each win another Super Bowl before they retire (I don't think this is out of the question). In that case, you have Brady, Eli, Peyton, Rogers, Brees and Rothlisberger with 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, and 2 SB rings, respectively. Peyton, Rogers and Brees all have huge regular-season statistical production as well. How do you even rank the QBs of Brady's generation, let alone all-time QBs?
Thing is the dude is not done. They are still the favorites to go back to the Super Bowl in 2013 according to vegas.GB, NO and NE are top 3. This year he did not have a great cast around him. Hard to argue with his 3 rings and 5 total super bowl appearances in 12 seasons. I think only Elway and Brady have been super bowl QBs 5 times. The other question is Eli possibly surpassing Peyton as the greatest Manning. He has been able to do what Peyton couldn't by beating Belechik and Brady. NE was Peyton's worst nightmare. NE will probably sell out to get to 1 or 2 more super bowls before the window closes. Word is they have 4 draft picks in first 2 rounds and about 20 million in cap room. They need a WR and a couple DBs for starters. NE might have the worst WR corp in the NFL. Thats why their top recieving target was a TE. And that guy was pretty worthless yesterday.
Not only were his 3 super bowl wins engineer by last minute drives but also his loss in 42. NE took the lead in the final 2 min but then Eli took it back with the miraculous velcro catch. Eli now has 2 game winning drives under his belt. I remember a time when the super bowls were never close games. The last few years has been refreshing to have games come down to the 4th qtr and final plays.
I would not put Elway (2-3 in super bowls) or Favre (most overated QB of all time) in the conversation of greatest of all time. I think that conversation would include Montana, Bradshaw and Unitas. And who knows maybe Eli. He has a chance to come from the back of the pack.
Exactly. All that was spot on.
I think his legacy has taken a hit. Just look at it this way:
- He could have led the only 19-0 team in NFL history, but lost in the game that mattered most.
- He has been beaten in two straight Super Bowls by the same team, same coach and same quarterback.
- He could have been 5-0 in Super Bowls (and maybe should have been) but is now 3-2.
- He still hasn't tied Montana or Bradshaw in Super Bowls and the window is closing.
Brady is still one of the greatest QB's to ever strap on the cleats, but I don't think he can ever be considered THE best.
What is that, a Titleist? A hole in one...
Montana played some cupcakes in the SB. He got crushed by the NYG pass rush, too.
Vim -- noun: robust energy and enthusiasm : VITALITY
Brady lost this game...he had opportunities to win the game and he blew it.
He had Welker wide open late in the game and he threw it behind him. That was one of the worst passes of several bad passes Brady made on the night.
I think that's pretty fair, and I think failing to lead a touchdown drive with 57 seconds and a time out hurts him. When we think "greatest quarterback ever," we think of someone who'd complete that drive. Even so, I think Brady still has a chance to reclaim what he lost. Despite his early failures, Elway is in the conversation for the greatest ever because of his last two seasons. Brady's legacy took a hit, but his career isn't over yet.
That's the funny thing about sports...would Elway have won those two Super Bowls without Terrell Davis? Would the Patriots have won yesterday with a healthy Gronkowski? Hmm... guess we'll never know.
Brady played well, and given that reality, a loss in a Super Bowl doesn't change his standing. A win could've enhanced it, but it's Eli who gets that bump. Arguments over who is the best all-time are by their nature subjective, but the truth is Brady belongs in the discussion with the likes of Montana and Unitas. Not bad for a 6th round draft choice. Yeah, he went to Michigan, but I like to point out to Wolverine fans that they booed him because they wanted Drew Henson to play.
But I think you're right in that the Patriots have become one-dimensional, both offensively and as a team. It's just that this dimension is named Tom Brady. The team ranked 20th in rushing this past season. Their last Super Bowl win was 2004....they were 7th in the NFL in rushing. The Patriots were 11th in passing in 2004....this year 2nd. They gave up the 2nd most yards in the NFL in 2011....31 out of 32. In 2004, they were 9th. The team is unbalanced and what you see is their season ending in games where they're not able to put up their big numbers.
Even if this pass happy modern NFL, defense still matters if you want to hoist trophies. Brady is doing his part, but that window is closing and if the goal is Super Bowls, they may need to sacrifice those gaudy regular season numbers........
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." --Gandhi
The guy has three Super Bowl rings and he's bonking a supermodel. I don't think he cares that much about his legacy.
Clearly Welker should have caught the pass. Clearly.
I sense vargman coming to the rescue in 3,2,1........
UM, Green Bay and Chicago teams all have one thing in common: They all suck
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