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Simple. 6 and 6. Lousy qb play.
Keeping the sunshiners in check since 2000.
I think what I'm looking for most (outside of wins and championships) is recruiting improvement, even if it is only on paper. There appears to be little sign of advancement.
Michigan State historically is a fringe top 25 program nationally and will tend to have fringe top 25 recruiting classes.
Were you about recruiting in the 2-3 years before we finished with 11 win seasons?
You don't think the talent level of our team has gotten better and better every year? Seriously? Start with Taiwan Jones. You suck as a poster and obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I'll give you another clue, Burbridge.
This place sometimes I tell ya
"If you're worried about Wolverine fans, just move to Pasadena. You'll never have to deal with 'em."
Paper wins are important, eh?
Thank God you are VIP so you can get the recruiting updates then!
I won't argue with this too vehemently. Maybe this past season has me in a bit of a panic because I fear the program could become stagnant if there aren't signs of perpetual improvement. With UM back on the map, OSU undefeated and eligible, and PSU having a great season despite everything going on over there, it's worrisome.
Remember, it doesn't matter what the talent is on the field, but how many STARS some guy who's never played a down of football or coached in a game says he is.. Jesus tap dancing christ the fact that people get worked up about this stuff is just insane.
Again, I could be wrong, but it seems like we were ranked higher in recruiting those years.
I can't tell if you're trying to purposely stir the pot or not. I agree to some capacity MSU missed on some higher caliber guys in 2013, specifically along the OL.
On the flip side, you also have to look at guys MSU identified, offered and secured commits from. Guys like Chmura, Jay Harris or Kilgore aren't necessarily highly rates by the services, but they camped at MSU and received offers immediately. I guess you can look at that and say "well MSU doesn't get highly rated guys to camp" or the staff got to see this kids in person, evaluate them, offer and secure a commitment. Guys like Finley and Cooper are similar to this as they were evaluated at SMSB. These camps were in early summer, so it wasn't like the staff didn't have time to evaluate other players if they didn't like what they saw.
I'm not trying to blow too much sunshine, but there's more to the story than just pulling up the 247/Rivals/Scout rankings. I don't agree that Dantonio is slipping as much as I think this has been a pretty consistent Dantonio class since he's been with MSU.
If the Maxwell Rouchar combo is still QB/OC I don't think we can say there are any gimmes in conference on the schedule (unless MSU play's Minnesota) and ND.
To your follow-up question:
You only get 85 kids on scholarship/year. If every member of every class redshirts, the max you can bring in is 17 kids/year: 17 x 5 = 85
Obviously there's going to be some attrition, so that # goes above 85 over a 5 year period; guys only stay 4 years (which allows 21-22 man classes/year if NO ONE redshirts, for example, or go pro a year early).
The other consideration is that walk-ons earn scholarships from year to year (Conroy and Blair White, for example) and that reduces the # of scholarships that can given out.
Finally, there are medical DQ guys, who can stay enrolled at school but don't count towards your scholarship limit.
This year, I count 9 SRs on scholarship that are leaving + the 3 JRs. That's 12 "for sure" scholarships available by my count. It would have been 14, but Fonoti took a RS and Hoover was granted a 6th year.
So that still leaves MSU with 88 players on scholarship; they have to get to 85 by the start of fall camp. Attrition of some sort has to happen, be it medical DQ or kids buried on the depth chart. For instance, Deyo took advantage of the graduate exception to try and earn a starting spot at a MAC school this past year, so when I say "attrition" I don't necessarily mean that there's something bad happening at MSU. After the 2008 class (more on that in a second), there's been minimal attrition at MSU, and that eventually adds up to smaller scholarship #s. You may notice that Hoke's taken 51 kids in 2 years; check the Hoke'd thread to see who is no longer with the program since he took over. MSU is more stable and less guys have been leaving.
To answer your inevitable question as to why there are only 9 Seniors kids on scholarship, the answer is simple: Rather Hall. The RS SRs in '13 were members of the '08 class, a large chunk of which was wiped out in Rather. Another group transferred (Deyo, Woods, Burrell got kicked off, Fred Smith transferred, as did David Rolf). Those scholarships went the 2009 and 2010 classes, which make up the majority of the 2-deeps going into '13.
The 2009 class had minimal attrition; Caper and Norman graduate this year, Baker went pro in '11 (scholarship used in the '12 class), Sims went pro early this year. Treadwell played as a true FR but got his RS back, and Pat White and Spencer transferred. That leaves 16 of the 23 guys as RS SRs next year (though there may be a med DQ or two from that group); combined with Bullough and Dennard being true SR next year means that MSU will have at least 18 scholarships to stat with in the '14 cycle. With normal attrition taken into account, I'd expect MSU to sign a "normal" 20-23 man class and to have a top 25 recruiting class ranking.
This post was edited by MalibuMan 18 months ago
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
Because those ratings are incredibly subjective and #38 doesn't mean anything. How many top 10 classes did ND or UM get over the years, with each of them getting one BCS berth? We have competed for several B1G titles while being ranked in the 20s and 30s.
Would it make you feel better if instead of the 50th best CB, we got the 45th best and got bumped up to class #37? Think about what you're worried about and how much those numbers really matter. Relax.
This post was edited by TheBlitzIsOn 18 months ago
Based on what? Our terrible offense who just lost its 2 best players to the draft? Wait, I know, Roushar will figure it out.
You could be wrong? Look it up.
If you're going to pull out stats like 76% of our recruits are 3 stars, then go back and look at all the other classes too. Stop being so lazy.
Draw a correlation between recruiting classes and success on the field as it relates to Michigan State. Make an intelligent argument.
Well, when you only win six games, it gets a little easier to get "worked up" about aspects of the program. Recruiting, believe it or not, is part of a football program. I think. Maybe I'm wrong. Clearly you're smarter than I am. I bet if Nick Saban read your post, he'd probably start recruiting two- and three-star players too. After all, he could just coach them up, right?
In those years, we had more scholarships to give out. Look at it this way. The 2013 recruiting class is the 2nd highest star average that Dantonio has had in 7 recruiting classes. 2009 was the only one with a higher average. The rankings are all relative, but they are accelerated by the number of commits that you have.
I can't tell if you're arguing FOR or AGAINST me.
Thank you. I appreciate the info and the explanation.
Thanks, Rocky. I think that your explanation is very fair.
Again, asking a question based on my impressions rather than research, it seems like programs like UM sign many more players than us every single year (which might, in part, explain their high ranking). However, quantity seems to be the case every single year. Do the 37 teams ranked above MSU have higher attrition/graduation rates than MSU every year; are they just over-signing on a routine basis; or does MSU have a lower attrition rate, with more players staying 4-5 years than them?
This post was edited by Professor Chaos 18 months ago
Calling..... Tanfan.......where are you........Tanfan?
FWIW, I wasn't fishing and I only wanted some reasonable explanations from people who were more knowledgeable about recruiting than I am. To those of you who took the time to explain, thank you for humoring me.
It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's an meaningless number assigned by people who are so good at evaluating talent they work for a website.
Hope that helps
Convince me that rivals star ratings and class rankings mean anything.
Because Alabama and other national championship programs routinely have dozens of them on the rosters. I don't think that's a coincidence.
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