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Did Bell, Gholston, Sims make a mistake?

  • Now that's a far better reply than I ever expected from you Big Fella. But, seriously? Even if you're correct, it doesn't tend to prove I'm an "idiot." But I digress from a far more important point that I will make, again, with a new twist:

    This entire thread is really asking the question: What is the purpose of the MSU Football Program?

    Interestingly, all things being equal, if you think early departures from the Program are a good thing, then you have to be honest and say you don't really care if we win Big Ten Championships and are ranked with a shot at number one in the nation every year. You believe the prestige of having players in the NFL is all that matters. That's legit. I get it. In some ways it's admirable. But, in the long run, your program will suffer, you will lose, fans won't come to the stadium to see you play or watch you on TV, you will become a stepping stone for coaches and players, and, eventually, you won't even have players going to the NFL and you will be irrelevant.

    If, however, you discourage early departure and, while you don't slam players that decide to leave early, you do everything you can to stop it dead in its tracks, then you have a fighting chance to develop a true program, win Big Ten Championships, Rose Bowls, and national rankings. Then, and only then, you are saying that the purpose of the MSU Football Program is first to WIN. It's a Program. It's not a farm team for the NFL.

  • I agree with you on Sims. However with Bell I do feel that as a RB it was in his best interest to go early given the nature of the what the RB position is becoming in the NFL. Regardless of what is still left in terms of his energy and ability, he most likely will not remain in the league after 30. His opportunity to earn is limited and he needs to make the most of it. Gholston just shouldn't have gone period. I do not wish to disrespect the players at all but obviously either Sims and Gholston had some very bad advice given to them or they made a very dumb decision.

    What would bother me most more than these 3 leaving, is who is telling them to go early? Obviously with the Kearney situation and now with Sims/Gholston (or vice-versa) decision it should be looked at. We should be able to teach them better than this...twocents

  • I wish them all the best and hope they have great NFL careers.

  • When people leave early it means you're getting some of the best players. How many national titles and conference ships has Alabama won? They have guys leave early every year. It is a good thing. If people don't leave early it means you aren't getting the best players.

  • Uhmmmm. Except the the next five month project starts next August. But, again, you think the purpose of the MSU Football Program is to put players in the NFL. As I said above, that has some logic to it if you hold certain premises to be true. I think it's purpose is different from that and early departures are inconsistent with that purpose, i.e., develop the Program to win.

  • I'll go ahead and disagree with you on that BOG. The average 3rd rounder in the NFL makes about 500k per year...

    For instance, Baltimore took RB Bernard Pierce toward end of 3rd round last season...most of you guys know that he's Ray Rice's back up but is an ass kicker that could displace Rice relatively soon......here is how much he's scheduled to make:

    http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/bernard-pierce/

    .......I believe with a good combine L.Bell can ascend to the end of the 3rd round but more likely will be taken in early to mid 4th.

    As for Gholston, I'm going to use this OU player as an example:

    DE Frank Alexander, Oklahoma 6-3, 270
    Overall Pick No. 103 CFN Overall Ranking: 234

    Very long with a big frame and great size, he’s got the body to go along with the pass rushing ability. When he gets around the edge and he’s able to get to the quarterback it’s over. He’s a terrific closer and has a great final step with the ability to work in several alignments and produce. However, he’s not a great athlete and doesn’t stand out physically in any one way. While he was productive and was a top-level Big 12 sacker, he doesn’t quite have enough to be a specialist at the next level and has a very, very short ceiling. If he makes it, it’ll be as a backup.
    CFN Projection: Sixth Round

    ......they projected him as a sixth rounder but he was taken by Carolina in the middle of the 4th round. He also make a tidy living:

    http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/frank-alexander/

    ......those are VERY good livings and contracts that will pay these up and comers a total of 2.5 mil even if they flame out....that's a solid business and life decision. (btw: Cousins and Keyshawn went in 4th as well, granted they were senior and out of eligibility but still good contracts and VERY good players)

    This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by spartyon1 14 months ago

  • Sims' legal issue with the DPS occurred after the 2009 football season. He was already signed, enrolled and off-limits to any other school unless released from his scholarship by MSU. Granted, MD did stick with him, but here was never any plug for "Miami and others" to pull.

    And I don't remember any such comments about Bell's coach. Based on your comments about Sims, I'm inclined to think you made that up as well.

    "The RCMB on 247 is one of the most awful, alarming, inappropriate, disgusting, and offensive msg boards in the history of the internet."

  • BoG ...

    A lot of what you said makes sense. Except for..

    You don't buy that a running back takes a beating? That they have a shorter shelf life and Prime than other positions?

    You see a lot of 33-36 year old RBs doing big things?

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  • Even if Sims and Gholston just improved to the top of the 2nd round the pay would be 4 years /5.3 mil for Coby Fleener TE and 4 years /5 mil for Andre Branch DE. ( branch was the lower pick) vs 2.5 mil over the same period of time. That is a big difference.

    Coby Fleener Scouting Report

    Analysis, predictions, and combine results for 2012 NFL draft prospect, TE Coby Fleener of Stanford

    http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2945

    Andre Branch Contract, Salaries, and Transact

    Andre Branch is signed for 4 years / $5.09 million with the Jacksonville Jaguars. He is making $621.36k in 2013.

    http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/jacksonville-jaguars/andre-branch/

    This post was edited by MindlessChaos 14 months ago

  • I'm not in the least bit critical of you or DWags (or others) who take this exact position. But, again, what's the purpose of the Program?

    As for advice to players to leave early or transfer, you raise another very, very important question. There has to come a time when Coach Dantonio's opinion about early departure for a player is thought to be respected by the players, parents, and others. Right now, obviously, it isn't. Yet, his track record in predicting if the early departure is warranted has been very, very good. He's not getting credit. Unlike SCum, who can call on their media partners to start a national campaign of seemingly objective articles about, for example, how good Lloyd Carr's or Brady Hoke's judgment is for leaving early, MSU and Coach Dantonio don't have that drumbeat available to them in a click of their fingers.

    So, we need a campaign to start putting the clamp or a damper on this early departure train. I don't like to use this word, but can't think of another: we have to "spin" the circumstances. Here's an example. It was pretty clear that Mark Dantonio was not on the same page with any of these early departures. So, if each of the three is drafted in the first round, this campaign does not work and shouldn't be attempted. If, however, say Bell goes first round and Gholdie and Sims don't go until latter second or worse, then we have the door open. We need articles about how Dantonio and the staff counseled Bell it was a good move, but discouraged Gholdie and Sims. Then, take some examples of past players that left early. Start to get information out there about what good advice they are getting from the coaching staff and that players are well advised to listen to them, and not to the slime-ball, hair-gelled agents telling them this or that or even parents wanting their kid to hit pay dirt.

    The best part is that these stories are likely ture and accurate. I believe Dantonio and the coaches do give good advice to these players.

    One way or another, we ain't winnin' nothin' 'till we get our best players staying four years and thnking loyalty to Spartan Football and Michigan State University.

  • I think one (call it symptom, side effect, etc) thing associated with successful and winning football programs is players leaving early. It's not necessarily a good thing but it's a reality (just ask Alabama fans). There are two ways to deal with this reality. You're choosing to whine and claim these players have some sort of obligation to stay. I wish them the best but will call them out on a mistake (I'm looking at you, Edwin Baker). We have to realize these are young men who are already near or at their highest earning potential for a career that will last on average less than 5 years. Given that situation, I will not judge a young man like LeVeon Bell who might last 5 years in the NFL versus 4 (had he stayed for a final year at MSU) when I realize that's the difference between say making 2.5 million vs 2 million (a 20% difference).

  • Gholston and Sims definitely but not Bell. RBs lifespan in the NFL and just in general is short. Bell is not the kind of back that can avoid contact; he led the nation in yards after contact in part because he was "contacted scared" far too often before he got past the line of scrimmage. Only so many hits a body can take. 350 more in college this year like last isn't going to help his stock.

    Said this before but both Sims and Gholston should have stayed because if they had and done what they CAN do they'd be looking at first round money instead of the 3-5th round non guarentees they're going to get. BUT,

    Both are physical eye poppers, especially Sims considering he's a TE and there are too many NFL team scouts that just start drooling over combine performances and "looks"; these guys always elevate a player beyond where he should be drafted. Gholston and Sims will benefit from that.

    As far as their decisions? Well Gholston has a kid and even a couple years of NFL bottom level contract is more money that he'll see than doing anything non-football related. Sims,,been banged up most of his career is likely thinking now is his chance. Plus, I always got the feeling he never wanted to try to be the best he can be. He's a guy, like Devon Thomas, that will take the money he can get and only play a couple years in the big game.. then fade away and be happy for it. I never got the idea he cared that much to do his very best.

    This post was edited by Fort Wayne Dave 14 months ago

  • I like how you dumbfucks think it's locked in stone that if someone comes back they automatically will get drafted higher and be a better player.

  • So are you saying that Magic is not a great Spartan?

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  • You are taking this way too seriously. What is the purpose of MSU Football? To win games and win games only? We all have seen in the past year that the mentality of putting winning above the well being of others isn't healthy.

    The purpose of MSU Football is to represent Michigan State University on an athletic level. Since MSU Football is a cash cow, it also has the responsibility of generating revenue for the Athletics Department and funding other sports that do not make money. Finally, it is to provide these student athletes with an education and experience to make them successful in their professional lives outside of college. Yes, winning games is nice but it is not the single only point of its purpose.

    That being said, if their experience within the program has provided them the opportunity to find professional success in 3 years compared to 4, what is their issue. These athletes are offered 1 year scholarships. They fulfilled the obligation of their scholarship for their junior year. That contract is completed and they are allowed to pursue new opportunities.

    Finally, you do not know their situations. They have to do whats best for them first. To crucify them just because its in your opinion that its not the best for the MSU program is a bit short-sighted.

  • "Great Spartans such as Larry Caper, Kirk Cousins, Jim Miller..."

    You do know that if any of those 3 had ELITE skills/athleticism for their positions (like Bell, Gohlston, and Sims all have) they most likely would have left early as well? A lot of four years players stay all four years because they don't have a shot at the NFL, or they need all 4 years to get their skills to where they need to maybe get to the NFL.

    Once again, you show you're an idiot. Complete fucking idiot. You're saying that when you went to MSU, say you went through you're Sophomore year and a big company said you were more than qualified for the job already and they would give you a 6-7 figure salary right out of the gate. You're saying you wouldn't take it? You would no longer count yourself as a Spartan because you didn't finish out your 4 years?

    These players risked their health to win MSU games, to make the University proud, entertainment, and to make some money. They leave a year early and that all of a sudden makes them less of a Spartan to some 4-5 year back up player who didn't sniff the field. They are great Spartans.

    This post was edited by PPTPWmsu 14 months ago

  • I find it annoying how MSU's 3rd/4th/5th round draft picks are leaving early for the NFL when Michigan keeps their 1st rounder... Bell is an easy decision to go as an RB but Sims and Gholston made poor decisions in my mind and should have stayed to prove themselves more at the collegiate level; Sims has never played a full healthy season and Gholston still needs technique work to accompany his amazing strength and athleticism

  • What if they needed money? A lot of thins play into coming back, not just "I need to prove myself more".

    Also what can our staff at MSU teach Gohlston about technique that an NFL staff can't?

  • Agree with this.

    I like Gholston a ton, but last year was a little ho-hum. Can't fault a kid for grabbin the proverbial brass ring, but I think another year (where he improved) could have raised his stock.

  • Sorry, Greenup. The purpose of MSU Football is to win. There is no other purpose. If the Program wins, all those other things are byproducts and will come from winning. If the Program does not win, it will not have any of those things. It defies reality to suggest that MSU's every move since 1966 has not been for one goal: to win. It's not just "nice" to win, as if we can do all the other things and, if we win some games, great. It is essential to win or, in our case, be poised to win with the ultimate goal to be winning. I have never heard any MSU coach in any sport say we didn't win, but we had three guys go pro.

    Also, this idea about one year scholarships used to be the rule. Now, MSU and other B1G schools offer four year scholarship guarantees subject only to meeting academic standards and not acting the fool outside the Program. See below.

    As for Le'Veon Bell not being noticed by major college recruiters until his senior year because he was not the hardest worker in practice, there was a Spartan Magazine article along those lines some time ago and I don't have the issue. However, USAToday did a piece with similar inferences from the high school coach, see second link, below. The "money quote" from the story is as follows:

    "Bell is a perfect example. Analysts rated him a "two-star" recruit out of five, yet he's in position to chase All-America and NFL dreams.
    "A lot of guys have things in them that you really can't measure," Helmholdt said. "Watching Bell as a junior in camp, he was kind of just a guy. He was a big back, but he wasn't overly explosive.
    "He didn't run with the same kind of passion, drive you see now. He was a dime a dozen. I can honestly say I didn't anticipate this. But the difference with him is that extra fire in his belly to maximize his ability."
    That started emerging more in Bell's senior season. His coach at Groveport Madison, Tim Brown, and principal, Donis Toler Jr. -- whose father coached Dantonio at Zanesville (Ohio) High -- called Dantonio to encourage him to look closely at Bell.
    "When they got that close look," Brown said, "they quickly realized what they had found."
    Brown was not surprised. Nor is he surprised by what he sees now from Bell.
    "Not at all," he said. "I always knew he had the skills. The only thing holding him back was himself. And that's why I thought Michigan State was the place for him.
    "Dantonio and his guys really pressure their kids to do the right things, really monitor them and stay on them. I knew that would suit Le'Veon."

    So, when you answer how Michigan State can build a Program and win consistently, yet allow its best talent to leave early, you will be the next coach at Michigan State. Say what you will, Nick Saben left because he and M. Peter McPherson did not see eye-to-eye on the purpose of the MSU Football Program. Saban wanted to win. At best, McPherson didn't think winning had to come at such a high price for MSU. We all know who was right. I love Bobby Williams, but that didn't work. Morris Watts maybe could have got it done, we don't know. John L. Smith was an offensive coordinator that should never have been a head coach. Now we have someone who knows what it takes to be a winner in Mark Dantonio. Will we let him win and take this Program to where, gosh sakes, Duffy had us in 1966? Or continue to fool ourselves that early departures of our best talent is good for the Program?

    B1G schools offering 4-year scholarships - Bi

    Recruits who sign with many Big Ten schools today can expect more security with their scholarships than ever before. Doug Lesmerises of the Cleveland

    http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/44807/b1g-schools-offering-4-year-scholarships

    Michigan State's Le'Veon Bell slipped through

    Ron English had that feeling, the one he seems to be getting more often lately, the one that told him he was about to throw one past the big boys. English, shortly after becoming Eastern

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2012/09/28/michigan-state-leveon-bell-recruiting/1600735/

    This post was edited by BillOGoods 14 months ago

  • Short answer: yes, with an if. Long answer: no, with a but.