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You are willing to make a lot of assumptions about what has and hasn't been done by ownership but aren't willing to use common sense.
Do I think the B&N made money? Of course it made money. Just because it's now closed doesn't mean it didn't make money up until a year or so ago.
Do I think Enso failed because of location? Yes. I don't think an upscale bar/nightclub in an area that is pretty much only frequented by students was a well thought out idea. Do I think that it could have been successful somewhere in the Lansing area? Sure. There are comparable places in downtown Lansing. Do i think they got a market study done? No idea, but I won't argue that either way.
Is there concrete data that says EL can support a 100 tap bar? I'm not sure, but apparently you think you are.
This is all true. The rules weren't really enforced in those days and Dooley's took advantage. They also had a pretty good "relationship" with ELPD. I remember a certain Dooley's company softball team that featured one Dooleys employee ( me). This may explain (partially) why I know so many cops.
Pizza and beer for the team, wifes and kids always followed the game. I don't remember ever seeing a tab.
The only thing I would disagree on is that Dooleys simply survived. For about 18 years, they flat out rocked. Hell, the coat room was doing 6 figures a year. ( in 1982 dollars).
You are right. Muncie has a larger population than E. Lansing - 70k to 50k. But if you consider Lansing and E. Lansing (which there is no doubt HopCat would draw from the Lansing region) you are talking about 165K to 70K. So, I would say that if Muncie can support it, E.L. likely could too (not even to mention the difference in the draw of visitors to a B1G university vs. Ball freaking State).
If you don't understand that Lansing suburbanites prefer FREE parking over having to PAY to park...I can't help you.
Comparing Manhattan to EL? Really?
If you don't understand that the parking was a minimal effect on the closing of B&N because bookstores all across America have been closing left and right, regardless of the parking situation,...I can't help you.
Using Enzo as an example is hilarious, it's Chandler Freaking Crossings in Bath Township, it's not even East Lansing, let alone downtown.
Why would Hopcat-EL draw from Lansing? They are opening another one downtown.
No, they are opening a Lansing Brewing Company, which, I believe, will be a brew-pub. I am guessing you are not a craft-brew guy or else you would understand the distinction between the two and people will go to each one for different experiences. If you think that a bar like HopCat (a name with national reputation for being one of the best beer bars in the country) will only draw from E. Lansing proper you are crazy. A place like HopCat is a destination - a draw unto itself. I don't think you fully grasp craft beer culture and that we are not simply talking about a bar with a lot of taps. HopCat is a brand (and a well-established one at that).
Because Hopcat is consistently rated a top 5 beer bar in THE COUNTRY
My point is that bookstores are closing all over the country due to e-readers and the EL B&N wasn't immune. Parking wasn't the main issue. Your example was a horrible one. You followed that up with another horrible example in ENSO.
At this point it is safe to assume your business acumen is non-existent. Frankly I'm a bit surprised you could figure out how to turn your laptop on.
If Evanston, IL (only allowed alcohol sales here 40 yrs ago) can support a World of Beer (about 50 taps plus a few hundred different bottle choices) along with a couple other 30+ tap bars, while Hopleaf is not far to the south and Yard House (another 100+ tap place) is in Glenview, I think HopCat will do fine in E.L.
I'm sure the numbers will be good for a year or two, and that the principal has done his numbers study. Yet my recollection of the ELnight life is that married EL residents don't frequent downtown EL eating/drinking establishments with great frequency/regularity and even fewer Lansing residents go there. Hence the population numbers don't tell the real story. Maybe that has changed? I hope that it's a wild success, but my gut tells me marginal at best. Lansing and the surrounding area is a shot and a beer blue collar town. $5.00 a beer will cut into bowling night discretionary spendable income and would be a big night out for alot of the residents.
This post was edited by rob 13 months ago
"I think the world is run by C students"
You probably think people from all over the Chicago metro, and from the city, all flock to Evanston right?? People here don't even want to travel to the next 'burb over unless they have to or really really want to.
So if I'm following correctly, Hopcat with either:
A.) Fail miserably within 18 months
B.) Be craft beer bar heaven on Earth. Transforming EL into a huge destination for craft beer lovers world wide, the proverbial "shinning City on the hill' of midwestern college towns because of this magnificant 250 seat establishment.
Hopcat is a solid model that will do well in East Lansing. It's not God's gift, it's a bar.
They need to attract the Okemos crowd. Leo's, Old Chicago, Dusty's Tap are all killing it. From what I can tell the crowds at those places aren't shot and a beer types.
You're (still) missing the point. Just because Barnes & Noble had the money to open a bookstore in EL, doesn't mean it was a good idea. They were all kinds of big bookstores at that time with FREE parking. (Again) if you don't understand that people from the burbs don't want to PAY for parking, I don't know what to tell you. Why did Jacobson's leave? Why is there a crap load of empty space in EL? Do you think Dick's Sporting Goods would work in downtown EL? Why isn't there an Outback in downtown EL? Downtown East Lansing is not a shopping mecca for anything. Why do you think that is? Why do people from the burbs not shop there? Why is the Jacobson's/book store spot still empty?
It could be both. A beer nerd Mecca that fails miserably because there are not enough beer nerds to support it and the ones there are cannot find parking.
I asked if there were similar markets with 100 taps. You said there were. I don't think you've shown me any yet.
I get it. But we're talking about Lansing. Not Denver.
If you look at the location in Grand Rapids...
1. Decent sized city
2. Tons of offices = good walk-in lunch crowd
3. Lots of hotels = good for lunch/dinner business
4. Conventions = good for lunch/dinner business
5. Proximity to Van Andel arena = good for nights/weekends
EL is a (much) different market.
I'm not (still) missing anything. I'm still telling you that to people who aren't you, parking is not an issue.
Parking shouldn't be an issue because anyone going to HopCat to enjoy some fine high gravity beers should know enough about EL to take a cab in and back home. No way I am getting in a driver's seat in East Lansing, MI after drinking craft beers for a few hours. Not worth the risk when every public ramp and lot has a cruiser posted at the exit from sundown on.
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