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I just did a graphic of how MSU and Duke match up in tournament runs over the last 16 years. Amazingly, as you can see in the graphic below, the average run in the NCAAs during Tom Izzo's run has Duke higher by the slightest of margins. Including tomorrow's matchup, Duke has 55 tourney games, MSU has 54. That gives Duke an average tourney run of 3.43 games, and MSU an average of 3.37 games.
I married a Spartan. Sure wouldn't want to be married to a Wolverine. Especially these days.
It's too late for me to math right now -- what are both teams' avg seed?
That's a nice graph and a perfect answer to the "elite" question. When I see things like that graph and I hear people question whether the program is elite, I say of course Duke is elite - they're right up there with Michigan State.
So, they basically lose in the sweet 16 or go to the championship? I guess we're playing them at the right time then
Calmer than you are
Consistently harder runs and matching dukes output.
If you go by average seed, duke is essentially gifted their first win in a 2/15 game (unless they're playing Lehigh).
MSU on the other hand has the dreaded 5/12 matchup.
Looking at this graphic really makes me question just how good of a tournament coach K is. It's obvious he's a great recruiter and regular season coach, but he seems to underperform in the tournament quite a bit. Of the last 16 years, he's been seeded #1 or #2 THIRTEEN times and he has only 4 final fours and 2 championships to show for it.
Not really important but I find it amazing that Duke and MSU haven't gone out in the say round once in all those years.
A Spartan Today, A SPARTAN FOREVER. Through thick and thin, low and high water I strive to be the best Spartan ever.
What I find most amazing is that from '98 to '06 Duke had 8 #1 seeds and 1 #3 seed.
I prefer pie charts.
You're in college. The window of opportunity to drink and do drugs and take advantage of young girls is getting smaller by the day.
Awesome graphic. Thank you. My only constructive criticism would be that instead of a star to designate games in which the teams met, you should have used something totally off-the-wall like Bigfoot or Bill Murray's face.
Linear time lines don't do pies.
That's why I did it. I wanted to know where we really stack up against Duke overall. And if we win tonight, we go to the next game and match the number of games and average tourney run over the 16 year period. Duke's only "advantage" is that they've won one more title than us. Other than that, we're pretty equal.
I like pie
Fixed it for you.
Solid use of drop shadow. +1
Some would say this line of thinking is Scum fan like (IE Spinning history from slices of time to the advantage of your argument).
You should have started in 1995 to avoid this criticism.
I think this is an important point....especially in the "Why people hate Duke" threads.
Duke is always given the benefit of the doubt for some reason. In ranking, and seeding, despite the fact that they really do not do much as they should with those high seeds.
Duke's only NC under Coach K that didn't come from a 1 seed was their first....in 1991. They were a 2 seed in the Midwest.
It wouldn't be too much different.
MSU made the 1995 Tournament under Jud, and lost in the first round. They missed the 96, and 97 tournaments. So that's one more loss for MSU.
Duke missed the 1995 Tournament. Duke made the tounrnament in 1996, and lost in the first round. Duke made the tournament in 1997 as a 2 seed and lost in the second round. So that's one 1, and 2 losses more for Duke by going back to 1995.
Fair enough, but I still think starting when Izzo became head coach could have better arguments behind it. Duke had a ton of success in the 80's and early 90's under K (essentially more than doubling up on MSU's success). But i don't think it's fair to compare 2 coaches to one. Izzo can only be measured based on how much he has coached.
You need to start with the 95-96 season, and the 96 NCAA tournament. Not 1995 Tournament.
That's a win and 2 losses for Duke...and no appearances for MSU. Again....not much added to the discussion. BTW. Duke was an 8 seed in 96, and lost to 9 seed Eastern Michigan in the first round. In 97 they were a 2 seed and lost to 10 seed Providence in 2nd round. Not sure that helps Coach K in this discussion all that much.
Thanks for the info about 95-97 for Duke. True, it doesn't do much to change the perception of Duke vs. the complete Izzo era. My focus was the NCAA tourney run of the Spartans vs. Duke since only MSU and Duke (plus Kansas) have uninterrupted runs in the NCAAs over the last 16 seasons, or more.
It just cements the fact that MSU is now among the elite programs. There is no longer an argument against it anymore, try as anyone might, it's irrefutable.
Interesting to note that every time Duke was in the championship game over the last 16 years, Spartans were right there in the Final Four with them.
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