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Boubacar cissoko, will Campbell, Antonio Jeremiah, tater tot, maxwell, mettenburger, the list is very long of guys whose star rankings do lie.
I agree that rankings are indicative of potential success, but four and five stars don't guarantee you wins these days.
Most of this thread involves people complaining about Terry being a 3 star and not a 4 star
People on here obviously care about stars
Rogue Leader= Obese coward who didn't attend MSU and has no college degree
First the B10 and the refs, now Rivals. State can't catch a break! Luckily stars only matter when they turn out to be right, like Gholston.
Excellent post. I agree completely. No way Terry is a Rivals 3* for UM. Anyway, fuck the star slaves. This isnt NCAA 13, MSU can't pull classes of 14 4* and 6 5* players every year out of the blue, especially given the past 50 years or so (and especially the last 20) our program has endured. The last time MSU was national championship caliber was the 1950s and 1960s. That is some history book shit in college football terms. Then we dropped off the map with the exception of a few short seasons in the 70s and 80s.
The coaching staff has to balance two things. 1) Go after players you want and 2) Go after players you can get. They are doing that. Basically successfully (arggg OL), in my opinion.
People here forget that 3* players are not chumps: They are starter/contributor material at a major conference D1 school. A bunch of 2* and JUCO players, yeah that is concerning. Mostly 3* with some 4* and the occasional 5*? For where we are as a program right now, that looks good to me.
The current state of the OL is not because of poor recruiting.
So the working theory is that these ratings people, especially at Rivals, don't upgrade or even originally highly rate recruits who are committed early in the process to schools who don't have monster fan bases? Like MSU?
Couldn't they increase their subscription base by catering to more fan bases? If they upgraded a guy like Terry would that attract some MSU fans to their paysite? I don't know, it seems there is nothing to gain for them to not give a kid another star if they think he deserves it, no matter where he is committed to.
How long can injury or attrition be used to explain how poor the OLine is? Since Dantonio has been at State, MSU hasn't ranked above 56th in the nation in rushing offense and hasn't averaged better than 4.5 yards per rush. That is 6 straight years of having a below average rushing attack.
I think a lot of the skepticism over Terry could be the fact that it seems that he is running a Rich Rodesque spread offense in HS and the analysts think he may struggle to adapt to becoming a Pro-Style type QB. From the tapes I've seen he seems to rarely throw the ball beyond 15-20 yards down field. For some perspective, Sophomore Denard Robinson completed 62.5 percent of his passes in a spread offense against college level defenses with very weak actual passing skills and we all know how well he performed in a marginally more pro-style offense.
That being said, anytime you have an athlete with the size, speed, and QB experience that Terry has you have a chance at getting a special player.
So what are Deyo, Conway, McGaha, Klatt, Reynolds, Dennis and Kieler then?
Don't use injuries as an excuse for Conway. He was just inside the Top 80 for offensive tackles in his class and he was being recruited the hardest by places like Cincinnati and Indiana.
Since this staff has been here, they've had four OL kids that I would call without a doubt "hits" when taking into account both progression and production - Foreman, McDonald, Jackson and J. Allen (if you want to include Fou as a JUCO that's fine as well). That's less that one OL hit per class on average. The rest have underachieved, been busts, couldn't play due to injury or the jury is still out. However you add it up, that's not getting it done.
This post was edited by Lunchables 16 months ago
Why are you such a whiney bitch in threads that have nothing to do with being a whiney bitch. Sorry you took offense to rivals bashing by using Michigan/Morris as an example of a recruit maintaining his ranking based on perceived program stature. UM has always been better in recruiting rankings than on the field.
"losing Caleb Benenoch is a blow that Dantonio will never recover from. Izzo has lost it as well. Hoke and Beilein own the state."
Barrent was a top 5 OT. His career-ending injury is the only reason France is starting. Klatt was a top 5 OC. Lost a season of critical training and development due to injury, and got passed up. Treadwell was a top 5 OC, but played on the other side of the ball, and injuries have hampered his development. Burkland was pushed into a starting role far too early and then got injured. Fonoti, the JuCo stop-gap, injured. Conway's injury was just one more cut on a line already bleeding to death. This season and last, MSU was starting several OL who would normally have never seen the field.
Guys like Deyo, Dennis, and Kieler are project guys; there for depth and physical potential. Every program has guys like them. It could be worse, they could be starting.
This post was edited by fishrose 16 months ago
Yeah. I understand injuries have set some promising players back and it certainly makes it hard to form any kind of cohesive unit, but the fact is (and I think even Rocky pointed said something to this effect earlier in the season) a lot of OL players do not seem to get noticeably better as time goes on. I don't expect a RS-So lineman to dominate, but the hard truth is that there are too many RS-Jr and RS-Sr players who simply have not performed up to expectations.
OL and DL players are very hard to scout out of HS and thus recruiting good ones is a difficult task, but the fact is the staff has not done well at getting and developing OL talent. Maybe it is bad luck. Maybe not. But something has to change.
Mad props to Foreman.
I've been kicking myself for reading all these posts about how the rankings suck, but then they don't matter out of the other sides of our mouths. Then I come across this and I do lol. This seriously is funny.
The staff took Kieler in last year's class, after a lot of those linemen you mentioned had been injured and we were absolutely desperate for OL. They took a reasonably early commitment from a kid that was looking at Minnesota and Purdue when this program needed impact O-linemen that could play, not projects. That's why I consider Jackson and J. Allen to be hits. They came in and helped. With Kieler, it came across as a luxury take. Dantonio made it sound as if we were taking a diamond in the rough, stashing him and waiting for him to be around as fourth-year junior once our loaded O-line had cleared out when it was apparent that wasn't the case. If we didn't have Finley right now, the OL situation would be a clown show and the staff would be left holding their dicks if Dawson committed elsewhere.
Not to go all Tanfan, but Michigan and Ohio State won't be bringing in guys like France, Deyo and Dennis. Their "depth and physical potential" guys are Rivals250 guys. Ours have offers from Toledo and Western. There is a difference. We're using a high school linebacker at tackle. Most programs aren't doing that.
Staff needs to start putting OL in the pros. No serious OL recruit will give this program a chance unless they start to do that. Program is just fine, but as I said earlier, OL recruiting has been poor.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Lunchables 16 months ago
Didn't seem to work for Notre Dame till this year. And why aren't Kansas State and Oregon on this list?
What expectations aren't being met? You already gave your props to Foreman. Jared McGaha and Chris McDonald have performed pretty admirably given their low 3-star rankings. Ethan Ruhland hasn't done so bad for himself. Arthur Ray got cancer. Barrent, Klatt, Conway, all injured. Those are the only guys on the line who would be RS Jr./Sr. this year, and none of the high-level talent that this staff recruited has made it out without missing at least one season due to injury.
The jury is still out on the younger guys, but Travis Jackson, by all measures, was far outperforming his 3-star ranking as a RS Sophomore before his injury. Burkland was at the very least living up to the hype before his injury, which set him back quite a bit. Jack Allen and Donovan Clark were hit-and-miss, but they were both playing out of position and way too early this year. McGowan and Finley are four-star guys we have yet to see, and we don't know how Higgins or Kieler will turn out.
Your argument just doesn't hold water. The players aren't underperforming; they're overachieving in many cases. The highly-rated guys that Dantonio has brought in have been injured or haven't yet had a chance to prove themselves. It's been an epic string of shitty luck, but you can't blame it on recruiting.
Well Michigan Fan McDuck, as along as 3/5 of the OL goes down regularly, you can pin it more on the injuries than the recruiting. I don't think OL development has been stellar, but MSU just rolled out 2 200+ yard rushing games in the last 3 games of the year and is poised to finished with a YPG right around what they did in 2010. Sacks are up a little bit, but given the injuries, that's too be expected.
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
Your expectations are way out of whack. We're not Michigan. We're not Notre Dame or OSU or Texas. Michigan State isn't going to get six four-star linemen to sign on in one class to sit on the bench anytime soon. Most schools don't have that luxury. You think Kansas State or Oregon State have been pulling in four-star offensive linemen hand over fist? On top of that, offensive linemen aren't expected to contribute before their junior year. Ever. Sometimes you get lucky with a guy who can start his sophomore year, and there are one or two five-stars every year that can play at a high level as freshmen, but Kieler wasn't a "reach" because he's going to take a few years to get in shape. You just have completely unrealistic expectations for this program.
Yes. Not sure why people don't recognize that injuries do have an effect on depth and preparedness. It's just easier to blame it on "recruiting" I guess because it's passive-aggressive coach bashing.
Down the list . . .
Broke his vertebrae
Broke his foot
Bounced between OL/DL
Injured this year; was the #2 LT
Kieler is a true freshman
Of those, Deyo and McGaha are true "misses". Why not add the rest of the list give the full picture?
Ray Jr: Cancer
Dumphord: Homesick and transferred after a couple of weeks on campus
Heuter: Retired from football due to injuries
Ruhland: Depth guy
Barrent: Retired from Football due to injuries
Klatt: Broke his foot
Conway: Broke his vertebrae, missed nearly 18 months of football
Treadwell: moved to DT for 2 years, moved back, broke his leg, set to start this year, stress fracture, came on strong; MSU's OL improved demonstrably once he worked his way back in.
Burkland: Started as a RS FR, broke his ankle, worked his way back, infected finger this year, missed fall camp, started since week 3 due to Fonoti's injury
Michael Dennis: #2 LT until he was injured during the season
Jackson: Started 11 games at C as a RS FR. Started first 3 games at C. Out for the year with a leg injury
Fonoti: Starting RT after burkland went down in '11, right up until he broke his leg 2 days before the ND game
Jack Allen: Started at LG while Treadwell was injured in '12, struggled, moved to C when Jackson went down and found success
Donovan Clark: True guard that started 2 games at LT due to injuries to France, Dennis and Fonoti. Played well against UM and poorly against Wisconsin.
Conklin, Kieler, Higgins and McGowan are true FR.
Basically since 2008 the guys have either been successes or have been injured. The number of injuries are absolutely unreal and the truth is that there's no explanation for them.
Good. So you're now on record saying Kieler is not a reach. Got it.
About half of the players K-State signs are ready right away because they are JUCOs. They may not be 4 star guys, but they are just as capable of playing as someone like Fou.
Look dude, OL do not play as true freshmen, and when they do, they rarely make an impact.
Even 4-star all world everything Barrent wasn't ready for the college level until the spring of his RS Soph year. Then his back flared up and it was all over.
Kieler is a project guy because he's raw both physically and technique-wise. The fact that he won't contribute until his junior year at the earliest is not what makes him a reach.
So Deyo is a "bust" yet Ruhland is tucked safely into the "depth guy" category when Ruhland was rated higher than Deyo and they've both done practically nothing? The resumes of Ruhland and "bust" McGaha are pretty similar as well. McGaha actually had more starts than Ruhland through their junior seasons.
I'm going to get banned if I keep going so I'll stop Injuries have been an issue (I never really said in this thread that they weren't) but some of these kids haven't developed on top of it.
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