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The average in those games is nice on the surface, but here's are the real questions: Do you trust our o-line to block well enough to get one yard when we absolutely need it? Do you trust it enough to consistently run on first and second down without fear of falling behind the chains? I sure as hell don't.
When Bell goes for a decent run, I don't think "Great, we're rolling now, give it to him again." I think, "On his next carry he's going to have three guys on him the moment he takes the handoff."
Alabama, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Stanford aren't winning because they chose a pro-style scheme. They're winning because they have great offensive lines.
This post was edited by Omar Comin19758 19 months ago
I know stats are for losers and they don't tell the whole story but from espn stats something stood out to me in the rush attempts:
In our 6 wins, 251 rush attempts
In 6 losses, 199 attempts.
except for central, every game was tight this year. If we run the ball 10 more times a game, we possibly burn 4 more minutes of clock, and those last drive points our defense gave up never come to fruition*
* I know it is not an exact science but those numbers continue to reinforce to me we abandoned the run way too quickly.
There were only 3 losses where Bell had lower than 29 carries.
ND- L. Bell 19 carries 77 yds 4.1 avg
OSU - L. Bell 17 carries 45 yds 2.6 avg
UM - L. Bell 26 carries 68 yds 2.6 avg
In the others he ran just as much as you would want him too and didnt have lower than 133 yards on the ground in any losses except these 3. Now ND got off to a lead where we had to pass more and in the other 2 cases Bell was getting very poor results in running the ball. if you add 10 more carries to these or the other games the outcome would not have been drastically changed. OSU still would have beat us and ND too. It did have an impact on the UM game, but drives would have stalled anyway if you used his avg for 3 straight downs.
You almost had me, then you lost me with nd game. He had 2 or 3 carries in the 2nd half. We weren't out of that game.
Further, his numbers were basically team numbers. That is to say if caper and hill get 5 more carries each per game, to me that changes things.
I understand your thought but we were nearly 50/50 run pass this year. Change that to 55/45 run to pass and we win more I truly believe.
Iowa game our only td came on a 30 yard field after a turnover.
Again, all hypothetical but I do believe in some numbers.
I agree with both of you in some respect. I think we abandoned the run on far too many occasions this season, including the Notre Dame game. But, as Mindless said, look at Bell's OSU and UM numbers. If we weren't getting it done with him on the ground, we weren't going to get it done with anyone. Whether that's because of bad offensive line play (likely) or bad playcalling (also a big part of it), pounding it on the ground with the same handful of plays wasn't going to work.
The worst part of it is, when teams like OSU and Michigan stopped the run, we couldn't make them pay enough with the pass. So they could keep loading the box without having to worry about much of a vertical threat. I'm not inside Roushar's head, but when you know you're gonna get 8-man fronts nearly every down, I'm sure that changes your playcalling. If we could have done a better job keeping teams off balance, then I think things would have been at least a little better this season. But that's probably obvious.
That's the thing I notice watching Bama run the football: those Bama guys are moving... FAST
The one example that comes to mind with MSU is the 4th and goal blow-up against Northwestern. I swear the NW defense was in the backfield when Maxwell handed off the ball. It was like MSU was moving in slow-motion.
Running the ball got Wisky 5 losses instead of 6.
I totally agree in some cases we abandoned it too early. However I would not make a general statement that if we ran it more on avg that we would do better. ( if that makes sense) Defenses were stacking for the run and running into that would have been pointless, but there were several times I questioned why we passed when running was working. My only disagreement would be that in a general sense we needed to run more vs some specific cases where we definitely had it working very well.
Actually disagree with you there.
They didnt run the ball that well in most if the games they lost.
Oregon state and MSU games are prime examples.
If you remember ball was getting no daylight so they fired the o line coach.
Things started to improve offensively after that. The did lose several close games (like MSU) but at least they moved the ball in most games and put up points.
I wouldn't mind it one bit if MSU emulated Wisconsins offense. They have a good track record on offense.
The reason Wisconsin has lost their games under heir current regime have been more to do with their defense, special teams, and clock management IMO.
This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by xwing 19 months ago
wisco fans hated their O coordinator. Probably changed after last night, but they wanted him fired after the MSU, OSU, and PSU games.
"Put your mother in a straight-jacket you punk ass white boy." ~ Mike Tyson
Not against us, they can't.
Vim -- noun: robust energy and enthusiasm : VITALITY
I didn't read too many of the other posts in this thread but I HAVE to believe they acknowledge the fact we've TRIED to pound the ball for years...Dantonio has talked the talk...he wants us to be JUST like the teams Tressel coached at OSU: undoubtedly true. But our olines have been too busted up and ineffective to do it. We've been consistently BAD up front since he came to town. I love the guy truly, but it's a fact: our olines are sub-par and that's putting it kindly really. Is it roushar? Is it Staten? Is it Mannie? Who the fuck knows? Our olines have been higher rated under this coaching staff than any other, and in my mind they simply can't stay healthy long enough to develop cohesion as a unit: I've mentioned taking a look at Mannie and the Mannie fan club comes our in DROVES to defend him: "Saban tried to hire him away....he's been here longer than Sparty so he must know what he;s doing.......blah....blah...blah"
Bottom line: they are always banged up and they get banged up in PRACTICE for crissakes. The last 2 seasons we've lost 2 starters during the week of he ND game IN PRACTICE...that's right, we're talking about practice.
With all that said, he is finally starting to realize we don't have the ability (for WHATEVER REASON) to put together a ground and pound oline......tried again and again and FAILED.....time to go in a different direcion due to the fact this cluster fuck of a season ruined a top 5 in the country defensive effort...at least he's acknowledging the obvious: rant over
This post was edited by spartyon1 19 months ago
MSU has the number 4 ranked defense in the nation.
They rolled up over 539 yards on the ground against Nebraska.
Alabama rushed for 350 yards against Georgia.
My only point was that these teams are old school line up and smash you in the mouth offenses.
I don't think MSUs offense needs to be "modernized".
They just have to run the football.
It has always been MSUs history under coach Da teams that if they run the ball well they win. They desperately need to improve in that area.
Yes I agree with you. All I am saying is it might be time to figure out what some of these other schools are doing and teaching their o-line when it comes to run blocking.
Both with weight training and technique. I am sure better players would help. It is probabaly a combination if everything but I have been saying it for years. MSU will never get to the next level as a program until they address this issue. They also need to improve their run play calling. Running the same crap off tackle or guard over and over again gets old. They need to keep the defense guessing like treadwell did. The quality of players on the o line has improved since treadwell has been here.
I don't think it is a good idea to change their offense to a spread either. That to me is giving up and isn't going to help with recruiting and get their players ready for he next level. They need to improve.
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