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The program is so far in the shitter that we beat the B1G champ on the road, won a bowl game for the second straight year, and lost five B1G games by 13 combined points ... after losing 4 offensive skill players to the NFL, losing a handful of other productive skill players to graduation, and enduring a ton of injuries on the offensive line.
Whatever shall we do?! Whatever shall we do?!
This post was edited by Omar Comin19758 18 months ago
...and players stepped up in 2010 - unlike what transpired in 2012. I am hopeful they will do so in 2013 (without Leveon to take the pressure off the passing game), but no longer expecting them to. The raw physical tools are there, but they need to improve their gamesmanship. A lot of guys can look like world beaters smoking the scout team in practice. MSU needs players to show up on Saturdays and make all these throws and snare all these passes we heard about all last off season
U should take samuels out of there
Yea, just like they didn't from '08 to '09, especially at DB. The point is that in '07, MSU won 7 games and won 9 the next year. In '09, they won 6 and won 11 the next year. MSU has the potential (emphasis on that word) to take big leaps from year to year.
You're right, they need to prove it on the field. To me it boils down to OL health. If healthy, I think a nice step forward on O is possible, maybe even likely, despite the ?? at RB. If the OL loses another 2-3 starters during the year, I think it's a 7 W team (with tOSU being replaced by IL, it's hard to image that game NOT flipping from an L to a W. MSU already lost to Iowa, ND, UM, nebraska and Northwestern in '12, so losing to them again wouldn't really change much from '12).
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
Thank you for proving my point that you have been denying in past threads. You said, "(the offensive line) has been a huge problem in terms of injuries." Exactly my point in the recruiting threads. If it's been a huge problem in terms of injuries, then we're talking a numbers game. Which is why most rational Spartan fans find it concerning that we're only taking one offensive lineman in the 2013 class. It's not a good place for us to be.
Offensive linemen get hurt all of the time. You said it yourself. You get guys like Jackson who get a season ender. You get guys like Barrent who get career enders. You better have guys in the pipeline to account for that.
You aren't understanding. 15 OL is perfectly fine for the Big 10, taking all of the above into account and most Big 10 school don't have more than 7 or 8 ready to go at any one time. That's WITH only taking 1 OL in '13.
tOSU carries between 9-11 scholarship OL and Wisky is somewhere around 18 OL in total, but I don't think they're all schollie guys. Everyone else is in the middle somewhere.
For instance, MSU played 9 OL last year without using a true FR OL. Do you need 25 OL when 9 play in a given year? 15 sounds about right: a complete 2-deep + a complete scout team. So MSU, despite all the injuries and attrition, has the requisite # of OL on the 2013 roster, despite only taking 1 2013 OL recruit. Oh, and I'm not counting Lints or Kruse among those 15, both of whom are solid scout team OL.
Now, they lose 5 OL next year, so as I said, they need to replace those with at least 4 OL in '14. If they only take 1 OL in '14, you can freak out then. Until that happens, however, you're worrying about nothing.
What you seem to be concerned about is that when MSU was forced to play their 8th or 9th OL along the 2-deeps that they didn't perform that well. Find me a team in the NCAA this year that had their 8th or 9th OL step in for more than a half or so and performed well. ND didn't lose an OL start to injury the whole year and Bama's Jones was injured during the SEC CCG and still played in the NC Game; 0 starts lost by either team. UM? They had worse OL depth than MSU, and I don't believe they lost a couple of OL starters. UW lost 1, Wagner, for a little while. I don't recall Nebraska or Northwestern losing multiple OL.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by MalibuMan 18 months ago
Yeah, I do. Lewis went from a possible early entry candidate to a guy who hopefully gets drafted. He went from 2nd team All Big 10 to honorable mention. Adams is gone. I think there are some concerns.
Our offense was about what I thought it would be at the start of the season. The problems were that there was no depth behind Bell (which we survived but if Bell had been injured?) and our QB and all the WR's were new. I thought that our WR's and QB did not improve as much as they should have and overall our passing attack was far below what it should have been all season.
The injuries to our offensive line and to Sims who missed about 4 games probably was a factor in the poor developement of our passing game, but what scares me is that maybe our QB's and WR's are not as good as advertised and won't get better. We need to develope a #1 RB and find a QB and some receivers or we will be a 6 win team again next year.
This post was edited by rodent 18 months ago
Oh I understand. I understand that you're playing both sides. You say the numbers are fine, and then you say that the reason our line wasn't good was because of injuries....which is directly related to numbers.
There is a reason why very few programs ever only take one offensive lineman in a class. Because it doesn't address the depth that you need to play in a BCS conference.
There is a reason why we wanted Benenoch, Kugler, Norman, etc. Because we need linemen.
This I agree with. +1
It's not really numbers, it second level talent.
We were also losing to Boise State, Wisconsin, and TCU at halftime.
Rocky, do you feel MSU has a top tier OC?
Why do you think they're a huge question mark? Lewis is a very good player, Drummond also makes a lot of plays and is a good tackler.
RJ Williamson showed some flashes, Cox added to the mix next year. I don't see why that is a position to be worried about.
No, you aren't understanding that there are 2 sides. There's raw # of OL on a roster: MSU is fine there. There's the # of OL who are ready to contribute in any given year: that should be between 6-8. MSU had that this year: France, Burkland, Fonoti at OT, Treadwell, Jackson, Allen, McDonald and Ruhland at C/OG.
The problem is that MSU used 10 different OL this year due to injuries: France, Ruhland, Allen, Treadwell, Klatt, Clark, Fonoti, Burkland, McDonald, Jackson. Michael Dennis even saw time if you want to be nit-picky.
That's too many injuries for ANY OL to overcome. That's my point; playing 10 or 11 OL in a given season means you're so far down into your developmental players that no rational fan should expect them to be able to perform and a serviceable, let alone elite, level.
It's not a matter of recruiting more OL, it's a matter of keeping the current OL healthy.
The only difference between Lewis 2011 and Lewis 2012 is that in '11, he had 2 pick 6s (4 overall INTs) plus 3 PBUs for at total 7 passes defended. He had 74 tackles, including 34 solos.
In 2012, he had 2 INTs, but 6 PBU, for a total of 8 passes defended, along with 80 tackles (41 solos). He played in 1 fewer game in '12 than '11, BTW.
I'm not worried about safety; 3/4 of the starting secondary returns. I think the defensive coaches have earned the benefit of the doubt in terms of back-7 replacements (Jones/Gordon to Bullough/Allen, Denson to Norman to Jones, Rucker to Adams, Ware to Dennard, Robinson to Drummond, Hyde to Lewis, etc.).
You're trying to have it both ways. If you think taking a class with one offensive lineman is a good thing, right after you said that we didn't have the numbers to account for injuries, I don't have the kryptonite for that thinking.
Again, there's a reason we wanted Benenoch, Kugler, Norman, etc.
And pardon me if I think you're a bitch
youngblood96/viggo martyr/jargon: tRCMB's answer to Vidkun Quisling and Fred Phelps.
Are you really that concerned with WHY we were losing at halftime to Eastern? I mean you could credit the coaching staff for making adjustments at halftime when we were losing to Boise, Wisconsin, and TCU (all games that we won after being behind at halftime)...if you're going to heap some blame on them for the first half of a game against Eastern (another game which we won).
Read what I said. 1 OL is tolerable for 1 year because MSU's overall #s are OK. That means 2014 they need to take 4-5 OL, because they're losing 5 after '13. I made it clear that 1 OL isn't preferable for this class, but it's not a program killer as long as '14 has a bunch of guys.
The injuries argument is separate from overall #s, because even if MSU had 19 OL on the roster, a team cannot be expected to have more than 8 ready to go in any one season and even 8 is pushing into "wow, you REALLY have a deep OL" territory.
There's more than one issue at play here. Tell me, if MSU has the same # of injuries in '13 that they did in '12, what good would getting Benenoch, Kugler and Norman do?
It doesn't matter if you have 15 or 18 O lineman on scholarship, if you have to reach to your number 8 O lineman in a given year due to injury, you're screwed. This is what Rocky is saying.
The staff wanted 3/4 guys this year because after '13 they will need 4/5 to stay at 15 total schollie guys at O line, but they can also get them in the '14 class.
"As long as '14 has a bunch of guys"
That pretty much concedes the point. Thanks.
If MSU has the same number of injuries in 13 that they do in 12 I'm sure they'll do what they did last year regardless of who they take in this class. What happens if they get the same number of injuries in 15 that they did in 12? Or 16? Do you see the issue at play here?
Uhh, regardless of how many OL you have in a program, it's unrealistic to expect more than 8 to be ready to play at a decent level during a season. The rest are scout/developmental guys that take the spots of the original top 8 each year. You need 13-17 OL in a program to ensure that you have 7-8 ready to go in any one year. MSU has 15 for '13, (17 if you count walk-ons). They lose 5 between '13 and '14. They need at least 3-4 in '14, preferably 4-5.
My bigger point is that even if MSU had 18 guys on schollie for next year, they still shouldn't be expected to have more than 8 ready to go. That's what I think you're missing; MSU has the #s to consistently supply 7-8 "ready to go OL", but the problem in '12 is that they went past that 8 man limit. Bringing in more guys isn't going really change that, but they need to bring in more guys in '14 to stay at that 8 man level.
What isn't clear about this?
Wav, I missed this, but COgruff sums it up perfectly.
I think it's very clear in your own mind, because you have convinced yourself that there is no correlation between recruiting numbers and bodies on the field. When guys like Arthur Ray get cancer, or Barrent retires from football, or Travis Jackson goes out for the year, you look at it as some sort of aberration. It's not. Offensive linemen get hurt a lot (you acknowledged this yourself when you mentioned 300 pounders moving laterally and getting their legs landed on by other 300 pound dudes). Situations happen. Good programs are ready to deal with that because they steadily recruit offensive line talent.
You have told yourself how it is, so you know you're right. If it makes you feel better, you should keep on believing it. I just don't want to hear the "we had so many injuries" excuse from you again down the road when you justify taking one guy in 2013.
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