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I disagree with the vacating of PSU wins

  • The game PSU played v. OSU a few years ago has now been vacated by both teams. It didn't happen!

    signature image

    RPMadMSU

  • WhiteBoyHatcher said...

    IGG!!!

    Where you been bro? They let you out of your cell for some library time on the laptop?

    This place needs more IGG, less Brodson.

    I agree

    signature image signature image signature image

    Snake Plissken

  • y2kMgrad said...

    Yeah, I understand punishing the record, but in general it's stupid to vacate wins. Am I supposed to just forget Reggie Bush's spectacular career at USC? Or Lavar Arrington blocking field goals for Penn State? Why?

    I don't think the record books are really for people like us, the ones that saw the games. Imagine if UM had to vacate 13 years of home games against Ypsilanti High in the 1910s. That'd have a bigger impact now than then.

    Sparty is our mascot, we are Spartans.

    ConQueso ●

  • LoneWolfSparty said...

    Hear me out.

    I am in full support of heavy sanctions for PSU. However, going back and vacating wins for something that had no bearing on the outcome of games is a bit preposterous.

    I am for the losing of scholarships, the fines, the post-season ban, etc. You have to send a strong message. I would also like to see Sandusky's retirement yanked some how. it is ludicrous that he could be guilty of such a heinous crime and still get a pension. Surely there is some legal recourse there. RCMB lawyers?

    But I don't see what good vacating wins does. Okay, you want Paterno knocked out of the top spot on coaching wins, I get that. Couldn't there be another way to achieve that? I think this punishes people that had nothing to do with Sandusky's disgusting behavior. Specifically the players that played at PSU from 98-2011.

    Recruiting would suffer if In 1998 Sandusky the current defensive coordinator was arrested and convicted of molesting kids while his charity is found to be nothing more than a front that finds victims for Sandusky to abuse. The team would also have their current defensive coordinator thrown in a jail cell as the coaching staff scrambles to find a replacement for the season. Adding in the fact that having a child molester that had been so close to JoePa's program for years would tarnish his "white as snow image." All this would result in a extra losses.

    Izzo Court

  • LogicalBuck said...

    I can agree with vacating Joe's wins from the moment that McQueary reported seeing Sandusky sexualy abusing a child in the football showers in 2001. From then on Joe was just protecting himself, his record, and his legacy, imo. I don't agree with vacating wins all the way back to 1998. Sandusky wasn't charged in '98, even though he probably should have been, but I don't see how you can say that Joe did anything wrong concerning his W/L record then. It was in 2001, after McQueary told JoePa about what he saw in the showers and, given his prior knowlege of the 1998 investigation, that JoePa became corrupt. New information might change that, but given what we know right now I figured his wins should only be vacated back to 2001.

    I agree with this. The DA didn't find evidence of a crime in 1998, so I don't see what Penn State should have done differently. In my mind, quietly easing him into retirement a year later was the appropriate thing to do given what happened in 1998 (creepy, but not criminal behavior).

    It is sad that Adam Taliaferro broke his neck in a win that has now been wiped off the record books.

    PRStoetzer ●

  • IGGcitable said...

    It means EVERYTHING.

    Why did Paterno enable/protect Sandusky?

    To protect his own golden "legacy" as Joe Paterno, Legendary Coach.

    That "legacy" was part and parcel with the wins record. Hell, it was the main reason they propped up Paterno's semi-zombified corpse the last 6-8 seasons.

    The wins should not have been "vacated," they should have been FORFEITED. Turned to losses.

    Just like the Fab Five's should have been.

    Oh, by the way, guess which football coach we all know DID have games forfeited (not vacated) off his record?

    Why, my old friend and idol, our own George Perles!!!!! rant

    After the NCAA probation which followed his firing, Perles had 5 games forfeited off his WL record in 1994 for playing an ineligible player.

    So you mean to tell me that playing an ineligible player is a horrible enough crime the NCAA will forfeit games for it, but aiding and enabling a predatory ass-fucking pedophile for decade on end is not?

    ( I had plenty of problems with Big George over the years but I never thought he was enabling systematic rapes of kids in his shower rooms. uhoh )

    Bullshit. MSU should throw a shit-fit to the NCAA and demand all of Paterno's games in question be FORFEITED. None of this "vacation" bullshit.

    By the way, forfeiting the 112 games in question off Paterno's record would,

    -- Drop his final record to 298-245, .549, dumping him WAY down all the all-time lists, and

    -- Finish his career with a nifty little **170-game losing streak**. Let THAT go in the record books.

    I think the forfeiting of games in 1994 was a self-imposed sanction.

    MSULordyoda ●

  • I have no issue with vacating those wins. My only wish is that old fart had lived another year to see it happen. He could have gone to the grave knowing all those years of coaching, (and enabling a pedophile) were for naught.

    Dicks Fake Eye2 ●

  • MSULordyoda said...

    I think the forfeiting of games in 1994 was a self-imposed sanction.

    It was. And it was before the current fad of vacating wins, I believe.

    PRStoetzer ●

  • LoneWolfSparty said...

    Hear me out.

    I am in full support of heavy sanctions for PSU. However, going back and vacating wins for something that had no bearing on the outcome of games is a bit preposterous.

    I am for the losing of scholarships, the fines, the post-season ban, etc. You have to send a strong message. I would also like to see Sandusky's retirement yanked some how. it is ludicrous that he could be guilty of such a heinous crime and still get a pension. Surely there is some legal recourse there. RCMB lawyers?

    But I don't see what good vacating wins does. Okay, you want Paterno knocked out of the top spot on coaching wins, I get that. Couldn't there be another way to achieve that? I think this punishes people that had nothing to do with Sandusky's disgusting behavior. Specifically the players that played at PSU from 98-2011.

    I agree. PSU had no competitive advantage because of this, therefore the result of the games shouldn't matter. As others have said, this was purely to get JoPa out of the top spot of the win rankings.

    BH Spartan

  • I think this is more about Paterno's legacy than anything else. Having his records stand, likely for eternity, is a permanent black eye for the NCAA and the sport. I have no problem with that.

    But I would agree though that the cover up didn't necessarily give anyone an unfair advantage on the field. Those wins are legit. Likely had this not been a coverup, Paterno and PSU would have endured. We'll never know the fallout for sure, but that's a reasonable outcome considering the size and prominence of the program.

    dagomike ●

  • PRStoetzer said...

    I agree with this. The DA didn't find evidence of a crime in 1998, so I don't see what Penn State should have done differently. In my mind, quietly easing him into retirement a year later was the appropriate thing to do given what happened in 1998 (creepy, but not criminal behavior).

    I wouldn't assume that. Campus police lead that investigation. I'm suspicious they "managed" the situation.

    dagomike ●

  • y2kMgrad said...

    Yeah, I understand punishing the record, but in general it's stupid to vacate wins. Am I supposed to just forget Reggie Bush's spectacular career at USC? Or Lavar Arrington blocking field goals for Penn State? Why?

    That's exactly the point. The games were played, the stats are out there and the players know what happened on the field. Vacating the wins is only symbolic but in this case that's emotionally significant.

    MSchott ●

  • Yo Teach said...

    It's virtually meaningless. They don't want to deal with the embarrassment and awkwardness of having JoePa being on top of the record books. That's all it comes down to.

    That particular part of the sanctions doesn't really "punish" anyone. Everybody knows those games happened.

    This. Just meant to take JoPa out of the record books. Other than that it's meaningless.

    The moment is eternal

    Desert Green ●

  • MSchott said...

    That's exactly the point. The games were played, the stats are out there and the players know what happened on the field. Vacating the wins is only symbolic but in this case that's emotionally significant.

    Yep, it's very Orwellian. You may have been there, seen it, watched it or even played in it, but we say it never happened. Kind of like my buddy who likes to joke "The NCAA says I wasn't at the Final Four in 1997 watching the Gophers but I could have sworn I was." Power trip by Emmert and a complete joke to do this.

    "If you have the right to be offended I have the right to offend you." - Ricky Gervais

    Enrico Palazzo ●

  • PRStoetzer said...

    I agree with this. The DA didn't find evidence of a crime in 1998, so I don't see what Penn State should have done differently. In my mind, quietly easing him into retirement a year later was the appropriate thing to do given what happened in 1998 (creepy, but not criminal behavior).

    It is sad that Adam Taliaferro broke his neck in a win that has now been wiped off the record books.

    No, it's sad that Adam Taliaferro broke his neck playing football. The W-L record associated with that injury is irrelevant.

    tRCMB - Visit at your own risk of being disgusted.

    Gob_Bluth

  • BH Spartan said...

    I agree. PSU had no competitive advantage because of this, therefore the result of the games shouldn't matter. As others have said, this was purely to get JoPa out of the top spot of the win rankings.

    While not the basis they made for vacating the wins, I think one could somewhat argue they had some sort of an advantage to their program by not letting the rapes come to light.
    I know you can't say with any certainity 'well recruits A,B,C, and D would not have come to PSU knowing what happened' I think it would have happened.

    sprtnjdk ●

  • I actually agree with LWS. Scary...

    The coverup didn't give PSU a competitive advantage... The players went out, did what was asked, and earned those wins. No need to take anything away from them. I agreed with all of the rulings except for that one.

    MSUsbetterthanu ●

  • sprtnjdk said...

    While not the basis they made for vacating the wins, I think one could somewhat argue they had some sort of an advantage to their program by not letting the rapes come to light. I know you can't say with any certainity 'well recruits A,B,C, and D would not have come to PSU knowing what happened' I think it would have happened.

    I disagree. If they had reported it, if all involved had gone to the police, if it was handled the right way, it might have made people actually want to go there, knowing the integrity of the coach and program. Tough to say either way in hindsight. Regardless, I don't think anyone could claim that having handled it the right way would have made their win-loss record better or worse. shrug

    LoneWolfSparty

  • MSUsbetterthanu said...

    I actually agree with LWS. Scary...

    The coverup didn't give PSU a competitive advantage... The players went out, did what was asked, and earned those wins. No need to take anything away from them. I agreed with all of the rulings except for that one.

    Nothing was taken away from the players who know they won. The wins were taken away from Paterno, who deserved it.

    Vegas Vic

  • Dick's Fake Eye said...

    I have no issue with vacating those wins. My only wish is that old fart had lived another year to see it happen. He could have gone to the grave knowing all those years of coaching, (and enabling a pedophile) were for naught.

    Joe would never have admitted any of it.

    Anybody find it ironic or odd that Joe was a committed Catholic and he did exactly what the Bishop in Philly did?

    Is it possible they conferred?

    Spartytruth

  • i see your point lonewolf but I disagree with you and here's why.

    Read the PSU boards. These people HONESTLY believe joe did NOTHING wrong and that because those that did this are gone no sanctions of any kind should be handed down (though I think many are starting to come around to reality a bit). Listen to ESPN they are bitching because it's "unfair" to sanction PSU because of what a few guys did. That's life.

    To me the vacating of wins was one thing the NCAA HAD to do. Sanctioning the program going forward is damaging but I wouldn't be surprised to see that stadium still filled up if out of protest if nothing else. The donors will drop money in and the 60mill will be taken care of. The mentality that PSU football shouldn't be effected because of what 4-5 idiots + 1 monster did is still a MAJOR problem at PSU. The vacating of wins hits them where it hurts. This is a direct shot at the mentality of PSU football. It shows that regardless of Jopa the administration covered up an issue that originated from football so that the fall out wouldn't destroy football. Removing the wins goes directly at that mentality.

    The first time MSU basketball aired in France the French surrendered to Tom Izzo just to be safe.

    Justinc882

  • LogicalBuck said...

    I can agree with vacating Joe's wins from the moment that McQueary reported seeing Sandusky sexualy abusing a child in the football showers in 2001.

    This whole debacle would be moot if McQueary had done what a man with any balls would have done:

    1. Taken Sandusky's head off.
    2. Immediately reported it to police, instead of his daddy and JoePa.

    Cleavage2 ●

  • MSUsbetterthanu said...

    I actually agree with LWS. Scary...

    The coverup didn't give PSU a competitive advantage... The players went out, did what was asked, and earned those wins. No need to take anything away from them. I agreed with all of the rulings except for that one.

    It didn't?

    "Hey young man, come to Penn State and play under the winningest, cleanest, most revered football coach of all time. The Penn State Football program under legendary coach Joe Paterno has taken 1000's of boy and made fine upstanding moralistic men out of them."

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    RPMadMSU

  • RPMadMSU said...

    It didn't?

    "Hey young man, come to Penn State and play under the winningest, cleanest, most revered football coach of all time. The Penn State Football program under legendary coach Joe Paterno has taken 1000's of boy and made fine upstanding moralistic men out of them."

    yep this has been my statement from the get go.

    Think about if this happened at MSU. How many recruits have we gotten because they LOVE izzo. Roe, Dawson, Harris, Payne, Green, Appling, Lucas, hell i'm sure the vast majority came to MSU primarily because our program is so good and because izzo is awesome. Now imagine if we didn't have the Izzo card to play. Do you think we beat Kentucky and get payne? Do we beat PSU and get Dawson, or IU and get Harris? Do you think we'd have a chance in hell with Parker, Jones, Alexander (who repeatedly talks about how much he likes MSU and LOVES Izzo).

    The legendary coach angle is huge for recruiting. PSU covered this up and jopa was allowed to skate and keep the imagine in tact.

    The first time MSU basketball aired in France the French surrendered to Tom Izzo just to be safe.

    Justinc882

  • I think it was a good way to punish someone who deserved to be punished but couldn't be punished in other more traditional ways because he is now dead.

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    Giant Moose ●

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