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Is this a new thing re: golf courses?

  • I played with my father-in-law's push/pull cart, and though I felt like an old man at times I loved it. When I'd play with two friends I'd walk, they'd ride, and we could still get off the course in 3:30. And I played better when I walked. So I bought one, thinking I'd get more exercise in and save $$ each round.

    Now this year it seems a lot of courses are charging the same price to walk or ride, or offering a deal that's like ride for $50 and walk for $45. Is this just another way to discourage walkers and get an extra $5?

    Is it because of slow play? Because when courses are a little wet they go cart-path only, which leads to the world's slowest rounds.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by msu98 on 5/20/2011 at 3:50 PM

    msu98

  • I think some of it depends upon the courses you're playing. We played up in Oxford last week and the course basically required everyone to ride. On some of the newer courses (built in the last 10-15 years), they put some holes (i.e. distance from one green to next tee) so far apart, it would take forever to walk the course.

    I personally prefer to walk as I feel I get a better rhythm going then when I ride, but it's not always easy to do.

    And if the good Lord’s willin’, I’m a keep on chillin’, refillin’ and flyin’ high

    Goud21

  • I've worked at a couple of different courses in Metro Detroit, and at one of them, we didn't have a separate walk/ride rate. From my perspective, one big cost is to charge (if electric carts) or gas (if gas carts) the carts. This cost is essentially a fixed cost because you generally charge all of your carts every night, as opposed to basing it off of the next day's tee sheet. I'm sure with costs going up, courses have decided that they want every golfer to pay the premium/luxury that they used to put on wanting to ride a cart.

    Sorry if that's confusing, but it's just a guess from a worker's perspective.

    herman24 ●

  • Maybe it is to prevent the wannabe pros that walk the course and talk 15 practice swings before each shot. The only people I see walk are those guys and old ladies on league nights.

    Drunk_dup

  • DrunkGuy said...

    Maybe it is to prevent the wannabe pros that walk the course and talk 15 practice swings before each shot. The only people I see walk are those guys and old ladies on league nights.

    You clearly don't spend much time playing golf

    FarmLaneWalkSig

  • FarmLaneWalkSig said...

    You clearly don't spend much time playing golf

    Apologies. What is the quota of rounds of golf per year before I can comment on anything golf related?

    Drunk_dup

  • DrunkGuy said...

    Maybe it is to prevent the wannabe pros that walk the course and talk 15 practice swings before each shot. The only people I see walk are those guys and old ladies on league nights.

    Pace of play is generally not an issue at most courses. Most people who walk usually play faster and aren't a problem for pace of play. I have played about 10 times this year, split between walking and riding. With no one in front of my group, we are usually within 5 minutes for time per round. If you want to talk about slow play, look at the leagues or people who are more worried about seeing the cart girl once per hole.

    herman24 ●

  • DrunkGuy said...

    Apologies. What is the quota of rounds of golf per year before I can comment on anything golf related?

    Eleventy billion.

    But seriously...I'd say about 60% of the people I see golf at my local courses walk. Where do you normally play?

    FarmLaneWalkSig

  • DrunkGuy said...

    Apologies. What is the quota of rounds of golf per year before I can comment on anything golf related?

    Just enough to know that statement was 100% wrong.

    http://www.silentlapse.com

    Thrillho ●

  • When I lived in Michigan, I usually played OU's courses, fieldstone in Auburn Hills, Pine Knob, Baypoint in Commerce, El Dorado before it shut down. Other than OU, mostly crappy to average public courses. I would say the vast majority of people rode. In Florida, almost everyone rides that I have seen. A healthy combination of the elderly and the heat.

    It maybe incorrect of me, but I usually grumble when I get stuck behind a group of walkers.

    Drunk_dup

  • DrunkGuy said...

    When I lived in Michigan, I usually played OU's courses, fieldstone in Auburn Hills, Pine Knob, Baypoint in Commerce, El Dorado before it shut down. Other than OU, mostly crappy to average public courses. I would say the vast majority of people rode. In Florida, almost everyone rides that I have seen. A healthy combination of the elderly and the heat.

    It maybe incorrect of me, but I usually grumble when I get stuck behind a group of walkers.

    Well maybe the Florida thing has skewed your perspective a bit...or maybe the east side is just different...I walked 27 holes today with a buddy and passed multiple cart groups.

    FarmLaneWalkSig

  • herman24 said...

    I've worked at a couple of different courses in Metro Detroit, and at one of them, we didn't have a separate walk/ride rate. From my perspective, one big cost is to charge (if electric carts) or gas (if gas carts) the carts. This cost is essentially a fixed cost because you generally charge all of your carts every night, as opposed to basing it off of the next day's tee sheet. I'm sure with costs going up, courses have decided that they want every golfer to pay the premium/luxury that they used to put on wanting to ride a cart.

    Sorry if that's confusing, but it's just a guess from a worker's perspective.

    No, it makes sense. I just see a lot of empty courses, and wonder if this is the best way to get people out.

    msu98

  • DrunkGuy said...

    When I lived in Michigan, I usually played OU's courses, fieldstone in Auburn Hills, Pine Knob, Baypoint in Commerce, El Dorado before it shut down. Other than OU, mostly crappy to average public courses. I would say the vast majority of people rode. In Florida, almost everyone rides that I have seen. A healthy combination of the elderly and the heat.

    It maybe incorrect of me, but I usually grumble when I get stuck behind a group of walkers.

    Many golfers who use carts don't know how to use them correctly. They slow down the round by waiting for their partner to hit before going to their ball. The correct method is to drop your partner off then go to your ball while your partner is hitting. Walkers don't have this issue and in reality most walkers are serious golfers. I walk nearly all of the time and we play pretty fast considering our oldest player is in his mid 70's (I'm 53). we are normally faster than the group ahead of us.

    MSchott ●

  • msu98 said...

    No, it makes sense. I just see a lot of empty courses, and wonder if this is the best way to get people out.

    I would have to agree with you as well in this regard. Part of the problem is there are too many courses in Michigan than the demand requires, especially up north.

    I had this discussion with a couple of the owners at the courses I used to work at, and was amazed by some of their answers. Would you rather have 80% capacity at a lower price or 50% capacity at a higher price? I think I set up the numbers so that the higher price had a little bit higher total revenue, but I was amazed when they answered the higher amount.

    In my opinion, you have to maintain your course at a presumably high level. I would much rather try to get more people on the course and lose a little less money. The course I worked at had great banquet facilities and did a lot of big outing event type of events. I would much rather get more play on the course to get people talking about my course. If you believe in your course compared to its competitors, courses should be getting people out there so that word of mouth can become another big source of advertising.

    herman24 ●

  • herman24 said...

    I would have to agree with you as well in this regard. Part of the problem is there are too many courses in Michigan than the demand requires, especially up north.

    I had this discussion with a couple of the owners at the courses I used to work at, and was amazed by some of their answers. Would you rather have 80% capacity at a lower price or 50% capacity at a higher price? I think I set up the numbers so that the higher price had a little bit higher total revenue, but I was amazed when they answered the higher amount.

    In my opinion, you have to maintain your course at a presumably high level. I would much rather try to get more people on the course and lose a little less money. The course I worked at had great banquet facilities and did a lot of big outing event type of events. I would much rather get more play on the course to get people talking about my course. If you believe in your course compared to its competitors, courses should be getting people out there so that word of mouth can become another big source of advertising.

    Depends on the kind of atmosphere you're trying to create. One of the perks about playing the higher priced courses with less people on it is that the round is faster and you're not constantly waiting on people in front of you on busy days or following hackers.

    The difference between playing a municipal course and a higher priced course like Hawk Hollow, Eagle Eye, etc. is that you're not out there all the time with weekend Joe Golfer and the tee times are separated by more than 5 minutes. To me, those courses provide a more enjoyable round of golf. I don't know many people that enjoy waiting behind a group on every single one of their shots, but they'll put up with it on holiday weekends on municipal courses because the rate is cheap. However, if I'm paying $45-$50+ a round, I don't want to be waiting on the group in front of me. In order to accommodate that, they need to charge higher rates, let less people on the course, and separate their tee times by AT LEAST 15 minutes.

    If you're going for value, then yeah you want as many people on the course as you can get out there. But not all golf clubs are out there to provide the best value or get the most golfers to play it at one time. Lots are trying to create a great experience instead.

    "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." - Mark Dantonio.

    JMSparty08

  • JMSparty08 said...

    Depends on the kind of atmosphere you're trying to create. One of the perks about playing the higher priced courses with less people on it is that the round is faster and you're not constantly waiting on people in front of you on busy days or following hackers.

    The difference between playing a municipal course and a higher priced course like Hawk Hollow, Eagle Eye, etc. is that you're not out there all the time with weekend Joe Golfer and the tee times are separated by more than 5 minutes. To me, those courses provide a more enjoyable round of golf. I don't know many people that enjoy waiting behind a group on every single one of their shots, but they'll put up with it on holiday weekends on municipal courses because the rate is cheap. However, if I'm paying $45-$50+ a round, I don't want to be waiting on the group in front of me. In order to accommodate that, they need to charge higher rates, let less people on the course, and separate their tee times by AT LEAST 15 minutes.

    If you're going for value, then yeah you want as many people on the course as you can get out there. But not all golf clubs are out there to provide the best value or get the most golfers to play it at one time. Lots are trying to create a great experience instead.

    That's why I didn't say 100%. You obviously don't want people waiting, but there is no reason that 4 hours a round can't be done with 80% capacity. All you need is a good set of rangers and people paying attention. You're not going to have hackers paying over a certain price.

    I would be ABSOLUTELY shocked to find any course that was willing to separate their tee times by 15 minutes. There may be open ones, but that is just unrealistic. I just played Forest Dunes a couple of weekends ago, and they were stacked every 8 minutes for most of the morning. We played in just over 4 hours, and it was perfectly comfortable. If you want to have guaranteed separation by 15 minutes, you better be buying two tee times. That's your only chance.

    Unfortunately, golf clubs out there need to be providing best value along with great experience. Or have a lot of play with a great experience. A great experience should be your main goal as you are, in a way, providing a service. However, if you are only out to provide an experience, money is bound to get in the way.

    herman24 ●

  • JMSparty08 said...

    if I'm paying $45-$50+ a round, I don't want to be waiting on the group in front of me. In order to accommodate that, they need to charge higher rates, let less people on the course, and separate their tee times by AT LEAST 15 minutes.

    This is why I don't golf anymore. A round at the Hacker course in NorCal is $60 min. and that does not include a cart. To play a nice course is triple digits. A round at Pebble and Spyglass is now over 4 hundy...

    signature image

    There is evil in every berry - Koran

    GreenWine

  • GreenWine said...

    This is why I don't golf anymore. A round at the Hacker course in NorCal is $60 min. and that does not include a cart. To play a nice course is triple digits. A round at Pebble and Spyglass is now over 4 hundy...

    4 hundy plus and at Pebble you're looking at a 5 hour round minimum. All I've ever heard about Pebble is that it's really nice, but no one actually liked playing it because it was so slow.

    herman24 ●

  • A lot of courses are requiring you to ride in a cart because they want to push through more players in a day. I enjoy walking but its getting harder to find courses that will let you especially on weekends.

    GRR Spartan ●

  • Walking >>> riding if you are able. Unless you are an expert cart driver, there is no difference in time between walking and riding and often times using carts will slow down a round. When I walk a course, I can get in a rhythm. As I approach my ball, I can think about what type of shot I want to hit and how to do so, and I can concentrate on my own ball. When I have to drive someone around, you need to drive to their ball. Inevitably, people don't know what club to hit and so we have to sit there for an hour to figure out distance. Driving is frustrating. I hate courses that won't let you walk, but it is becoming the norm. It's just a way to make more money, but I would be surprised if it actually speeds up play.

    signature image signature image signature image

    SpartanGop

  • herman24 said...

    That's why I didn't say 100%. You obviously don't want people waiting, but there is no reason that 4 hours a round can't be done with 80% capacity. All you need is a good set of rangers and people paying attention. You're not going to have hackers paying over a certain price.

    I would be ABSOLUTELY shocked to find any course that was willing to separate their tee times by 15 minutes. There may be open ones, but that is just unrealistic. I just played Forest Dunes a couple of weekends ago, and they were stacked every 8 minutes for most of the morning. We played in just over 4 hours, and it was perfectly comfortable. If you want to have guaranteed separation by 15 minutes, you better be buying two tee times. That's your only chance.

    Unfortunately, golf clubs out there need to be providing best value along with great experience. Or have a lot of play with a great experience. A great experience should be your main goal as you are, in a way, providing a service. However, if you are only out to provide an experience, money is bound to get in the way.

    I would highly recommend you walk Forest Dunes the next time you are there.

    EdMartinsLoan

  • EdMartin'sLoan said...

    I would highly recommend you walk Forest Dunes the next time you are there.

    Do they let you walk out there? I was up visiting a buddy, and he had us all lined up to ride. That was an absolutely beautiful golf course. It doesn't have the views of an Arcadia, but the set up of the holes is incredible. I was bummed to hear that they decided to start limiting "non-members" to 2 rounds per year. I was hoping I could get up there and play a few more times this summer.

    herman24 ●

  • herman24 said...

    Do they let you walk out there? I was up visiting a buddy, and he had us all lined up to ride. That was an absolutely beautiful golf course. It doesn't have the views of an Arcadia, but the set up of the holes is incredible. I was bummed to hear that they decided to start limiting "non-members" to 2 rounds per year. I was hoping I could get up there and play a few more times this summer.

    The course was designed to be walked. The longest hike is from the 9th green to the 10th tee.
    I've had caddies for various tournaments. They don't have a caddie program but I usually get one of the assistant pros or even one of the bag room kids.
    If you want to play more than twice, become a member.

    EdMartinsLoan

  • GreenWine said...

    This is why I don't golf anymore. A round at the Hacker course in NorCal is $60 min. and that does not include a cart. To play a nice course is triple digits. A round at Pebble and Spyglass is now over 4 hundy...

    Pebble's prices are why I stopped golfing too. uhoh

    ByTor20084

  • SpartanGop said...

    Walking >>> riding if you are able. Unless you are an expert cart driver, there is no difference in time between walking and riding and often times using carts will slow down a round. When I walk a course, I can get in a rhythm. As I approach my ball, I can think about what type of shot I want to hit and how to do so, and I can concentrate on my own ball. When I have to drive someone around, you need to drive to their ball. Inevitably, people don't know what club to hit and so we have to sit there for an hour to figure out distance. Driving is frustrating. I hate courses that won't let you walk, but it is becoming the norm. It's just a way to make more money, but I would be surprised if it actually speeds up play.

    Don't forget that RCMBer's consistenly drive 330+!

    msu steingr3

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