MSU Red Cedar Message Board

Optiking, based on floor game.

For the people challenging Smith and Respert, etc. you have to put them in historical context. For their era, they were the best players.

Izzo has set a new standard. You look at people like Jason Richardson, Zach, Paul Davis, Neitzel, etc. etc. and they have more final fours and accolades than Smith or Respert.

Kalin looks impressive compared to the past, he just doesn't look so impressive in the context of the Izzo era.

And I don't really see him as the "face of the Spartans" like any of the numbers hanging in the rafters. Respert is MSU's all-time scoring leader. Smith has a center named after his mother on campus.

Kalin is like Paul Davis or Neitzel. A great player during a great era of MSU basketball. Just not unique enough to hang.

For the people lionizing Skiles take a step back a bit. He was a great player. With that said also this:

Skiles attended Michigan State University, where in his senior season he was a First Team All-America selection as well as the Big Ten Conference MVP and scoring champion. He left MSU as its all-time career scoring leader (2,145 points) and still holds the Spartans' record for most points scored in a season (850). While in East Lansing, he was arrested and charged with felony possession of cocaine and misdemeanor possession of marijuana. The cocaine charge was dropped, and Skiles pleaded guilty to the marijuana possession. He was arrested and charged with drunken driving a year later and served 15 days in jail. During his senior season, Skiles committed a parole violation on an earlier marijuana conviction, and served a brief jail sentence.

In today's day and age Izzo probably would of kicked Scott to the curb with his transgressions.

Difference being, if Cleave's misses the NCAA tourney--we probably lose in the 1st weekend.

Both him AND mateen sadly.....

All true but a different era. By today's standards, Bobby Layne and Mickey Mantle would of been locked up while in high school. Apples and oranges.

There is a huge difference between preseason awards and post season awards. Kalin won post season awards. I think Kalin has been on a balanced team, using your criteria only players who carry a team on their back should belong in the rafters. What if Kalin hits 2,000 points would that help?

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this has already been posted, but it's entirely too early to decide if Kalin's number belongs in the rafters.

First of all, we're all disappointed about the season so we're letting our emotions get the best of us.

Second, if you look at the numbers and accomplishments, Kalin's right there.

Third and most importantly, Kalin's career isn't over yet. What if we make a run to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8? I know we all think it's impossible, but I didn't think there was any way we'd do a lot of things Izzo's teams have done, so why don't we all just relax and enjoy the next few weeks of basketball. We’ll have plenty of time to lament the way this season ends after it’s all over. However, if it ends on the first weekend of the tourney, that doesn't change the fact that all the seniors have given us a bunch of great memories and deserved to be celebrated.

I see 2 criteria for retiring a jersey. One is that if you consider stats alone, they have to be beyond compare. Like being the all-time leader in some category or just having obscene numbers that most likely will rarely be matched.

The other is that you are the face of an era. Stats don't matter as much as who you were. Did you carry a team on your back, ala Mateen or Smith? Were you the very best Spartan in your era ala Respert?

I don't think stats alone are worthy of retiring a jersey, unless they are just outrageous. A player could come in and play 1 year while putting up huge stats, but not do anything for the program, then leave. You don't hang their number.

Davis had over 1700 points along with a ton of rebounds. I think he's why Kalin doesn't get retired. Two great players, but not incredibly unique in a time when MSU basketball has been so great.

You have to realize that criteria to hang a jersey has gotten much higher since we became "elite". You don't see Duke or UNC retiring players like Kalin.

And Kalin really hasn't seperated himself from any other players the way Smith or Respert or Skiles did. He was just a very good player.

I never understand how people dog Paul Davis. He was so average he ended up in the NBA. He was rated one of the top 5 centers in the country. Yeah, what a loser. An elite eight and a final four as one of the leaders on the team.

How does Kalin get his jersey retired because his injury lost us a championship?

I mean, if Kalin came back from his injury, overcame losing Lucious and Allen, then carried the team to a Big Ten championship, then made a deep run into the tourney...now that's a story!

Instead, he got hurt, came back and the team is on the bubble for the tourney. We lost our home winning streak among other things. The season has been a failure, the first team to go from #2 in the nation to unranked. It's possible we could miss the tourney, another streak.

Where is the story? What makes Kalin a feel good story?

He's a great kid and player, i don't want to hate on him, but I don't see him in the rafters.

One word describes the Paul Davis legacy. CRAMPS

as much as I hate the Paul Davis face, can you imagine if we had him on this team? A reliable guy who can actually score in the post, get to the line, knock 'em down? Good lord it would be an awesome piece to have.

As it is, we are basically a jump shooting team. We looked pretty good tonight though, and if Kalin can help spur us to another Final Four, I think you have to retire his jersey. I can see the argument for retiring his jersey now, but it's kind of a toss up.

Yeah, all time leader in FT's isn't rafter-worthy. Neitzel is MSU's all-time leader in career free-throw percentage, meh, he also ranked 4th in assists (582).

Mateen was clutch, he pulled out games in the tourney. The thing about Mateen is that he was the face of Spartan basketball. He got us a championship after years of mediocre basketball. Mateen is the face of a milestone for MSU. What is Kalin?

I think Davis and Kalin are comparable. And I don't think we should retire either of them. Of course that's predicated on Kalin doing nothing the rest of the season.

Kalin was successful on some good teams. This year was his team and this is one of the worst years of Izzo basketball. I'm sorry Kalin is just another great basketball player at MSU, but not special enough for a rafter spot.

I mean, look at this year. Green and Lucious were both ahead of him with total assists. He reminds me of JR, a great scorer and athlete, just not much of a leader or a "face" of the program.

It's not all stats. We have a bunch of guys over the last 10 years that had fabulous stats. It's more about players that meant something to the program significantly above the rest.

If we fail to make the tourney or die before the sweet 16, that's part of Kalin's legacy, unfortunately.