MSU Red Cedar Message Board

I agree - I was simply making a counterpoint. To say that Orr's generation had mediocre talent and inflated his stats is a bit narrow minded.

There are some great individual talents out there today. Stamkos played OHL in my hometown and was a stud. Nice to see him doing so well in the league. The game has certainly changed from the 80's and early 90's to what it is today with butterfly goalies, two line passes, lock up defensive strategy vs open ice passing/skating, etc.

Its fun to debate the players over time periods, but to claim it was less of a league is crazy. No one else in those era's put up numbers like Orr or Gretz. Maybe he was an offensive defenseman, but that is what worked for them back then.

Nick is definitely one of the best defenseman I have ever seen play, and I hate the Red Wings. In today's game I would probably take him as the #1 defenseman. But in today's game I wouldnt take Orr, Coffey or Borque in my top 5. They would definitley be in my top 5 overall regardless of Era.

Impossible to really say who is better between Orr and Nick. But I think Nick was a better Defensive player than Orr. Please take Paul Coffey off any list. He was a 4th forward out there. One of my all time favorites but he needed kevin Lowe as his partner to make him not look so bad on D. He had the speed to make up for most mistakes, but not all. Nick didn't make many errors. It is safe to say Orr is the best before 1990, and Nick is the best after.

+1 for the Kevin Lowe props!

When the size of the league doubled in 1967 the number of American players also doubled. From 1 to 2. I'd assume figures for European participation were about the same.

The quality of competition throughout Orr's era was almost certainly the crappiest it's ever been.

I'm not saying Orr isn't the best ever but for Canadians and old timers to shit in the mouth of anybody who suggests otherwise is stupid.

Also, Nick should have won a couple Norrises before they voters got over their bias and gave him one.

EDIT: Serge Savard was a big part of the reason Robinson got to run wild all those years. He was certainly not the best ever, but he was top-something.

I agree with Coffey, while being a great offensive defensmen, he was a liability on the defensive end. As for Lidstrom, it is between him and Orr. I have no problem with either being placed 1 or 2.

I never felt it was right to pull players out of their era and guess how they would do in a different era. Seems like there are way too many variables. After all, chances are with the technology we have today, Bobby Orr may have been allowed to play a few more years on those knees of his but no one can't fairly say how his game would have translated. To say Orr never had to play against guys like Bure, Selanne, Malkin, Sedin can easily be countered by saying Lidstrom never had to face guys like Mikita, Keon, Hull, Howe, Richard, Ratelle, Lafleur, Beliveau, Clarke, etc with little equipment, no helmet, etc.; when things like a puck, stick or elbow to the ankle or face did serious damage. Orr had to fight in his era, it was expected You didn't face guys like Keith Magnuson every other week and not have to stand up for your teammates. Lidstrom was never expected to fight. Could he have done it? Who really knows?

To compare players across different eras, it's only fair to compare how they dominated their own eras. Lidstrom's been talked about as the greatest defenseman of his era and so has Orr but I don't recall hearing Lidstrom being talked about as the greatest player of his era like I heard about Orr. Was Lidstrom ever a Hart Trophy finalist? Orr won that trophy 3 times in his 12 year career. He dominated the game, not just his position.

The biggest knock on Orr is his durability. The fact that he had to quit the game early due to injuries may have contributed to raising him to this mystical level. Hockey fans never got to really see him in his senior years like Chelios, Howe, Lidstrom, Bourque or Messier. Those years are usually declining years. Orr will always have the "excuse" of his knees.

Lidstrom on the other hand proved to be very durable and played at a top level right to the end. Perhaps it was because of his era, the equipement, modern medicine, training techniques, genes, etc. Whatever it was, to his credit, no one maximized it like he did or Bourque did.

It's really the career vs peak argument. As someone mentioned, would you rather have a Lidstrom for 20 years or a Orr for less than 12? It's a matter of taste. Would you rather have Mickey Mantle's peak performance or Willie Mays' career?

I, myself, prefer the career. I feel really fortunate to have seen them both but my eyes don't lie to me, Orr was the better player.

And there are some of us who DID see Orr play, which is why Gordie is the greatest hockey player ever. Sorry if that bothers you.

That depends. DID that person see Howe play?

If that person you speak of saw Orr AND Howe both play, then I'd definitely listen closely to your explanation. As I would if you also saw Gretzky and Lemeiux. And it certainly wouldn't bother me.

On the other hand if that person had only seen Orr play and not Howe then I wouldn't put too much stock into what you were saying, especially if you're from the state of Michigan.

The fact you're old enough to have seen Orr play doesn't qualify you to say he was the best player from here to kingdom come.

If you want to say he was the best player of his era based on the video game stats he compiled against a bunch of guys who would have been in beer leagues two years prior, that's your prerogative.

But to dismiss, out of hand, the notion a guy who spent 20 years lording over the best players a half hemisphere had to offer might, possibly, be on par with the esteemed Mr. Orr is so nuts I don't even know where to start.

Yup - those damned Beer Leaguers like LaFleur, Esposito, Belliveau, Hull, Howe etc.... I never realized until now how easy Orr had it. Did he even wear skates?

Way to use a smidge of hyperbole as a way of ignoring my argument. How many of those guys played for the Oakland Seals, exactly?

EDIT: Duh, now that I think of it: How many defected to the WHA when it launched, watering down the talent even further? At least two guys on that list did. . .