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SpartanRocky
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Raytooth Morgan said...
Ability to recognize talent early on. They offer many guys before teams like tO$U and SCum know they even exist. Some of these 2-3 star guys we get are probably 4 star talents that MD and crew uncovered very early.
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
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Dick's Fake Eye said...
To the OP - you have to credit talent evaluation.
Worthy was a 2*, and he's leaving early for the NFL. Martin was an unknown WR - he just signed for millions in the NFL Bell is another one. I can barely recall the verbal from Bell, because he wasn't this 4* talent with 10 BCS offers. Yet here he is, one of the top RB's in the B1G.
But MSU develops talent. MSU brings kids in, RS's most of them, often puts them on the field their Soph/Junior year. A good example is Maxwell. He's now getting his chance to start, and he's been in the program for 3 years.
FWIW, both Worthy and Martin were mid 3-stars in the final rankings. Credit MD for finding them before other squads, but they were much more "unknown" vs. "known guys that big teams passed on".
I remember the Bell commitment because of the outrage
. State missed on several higher ranked RBs and people were pissed that MSU picked up a "Scrub" with offers from Bowling Green, Marshall and Easter Michigan.
Now Kiper has him as a 1st round draft pick.
Oops.
FTR, I think the 2010 class is the best class that MD has recruited at MSU. Other than Boisture who retired from football due to a back injury (4-star Elite 11 QB), every "elite" recruit panned out: Gholston, Bullough, Lewis, Burkland. Then you add in a pair of 2-stars who have played like 4-stars in Bell and Dennard, to complement a pair of 3-stars who started last year (Jackson at C, Rush at DE).
Drummond should start at FS this year as a RS Soph, while Lippett played extensively at CB before being slotted as a starting WR this year. Another WR, Mumphrey, is competing for a starting spot as well. Palazeti, a 2-star, is the starting FB, Sadler's the starting P, White's been a starter,
http://rivals.yahoo.com/michiganstate/football/recruiting/commitments/2010/michiganstate-30
Pretty much the only players from that class who AREN'T expected to contribute this year are: Boisture (back-injury), Justin Wilson (never made it to campus due academics), Tayler Calero and Michael Dennis (blocking TE in HS in the process of converting to OT).
The rule of thumb is that 1/3 of the class becomes starters, 1/3 provides depth and 1/3 transfers/never pans out. MSU is closer to 50% starters and 30% providing depth with the 2010 class. That's quite remarkable.
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
SpartanRocky
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SpartanElement
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SpartanElement said...
Rocky comes in with back to back essays and the thread goes to crickets.
(Just joking with you Rocky, I know you mods are sensitive
)
Downside of being a transactional lawyer; I'm set on making sure as many angles are covered as possible.
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
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SpartanRocky
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Dick's Fake Eye said...
To the OP - you have to credit talent evaluation.
Worthy was a 2*, and he's leaving early for the NFL. Martin was an unknown WR - he just signed for millions in the NFL Bell is another one. I can barely recall the verbal from Bell, because he wasn't this 4* talent with 10 BCS offers. Yet here he is, one of the top RB's in the B1G.
But MSU develops talent. MSU brings kids in, RS's most of them, often puts them on the field their Soph/Junior year. A good example is Maxwell. He's now getting his chance to start, and he's been in the program for 3 years.
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SpartanRocky said...
In a "macro" sense, what really helps is staff continuity and a dedication to the same scheme. You have 5th year/4th year SRs who have ALL come up in the same system; in essence, they can act as mini-coaches on the field, lead drills over the summer, etc. That allows the coaches to a) spend time adding wrinkles to the existing schemes and b) advance the young guys along as a faster rate. By the time a kid's ready to start, he already has 2-3 years in the scheme/system, which allows for more guys to be "plugged in" without much drop-off. You may not know this, but MSU's secondary was pretty much a MASH unit by the end of the year, with only CB Adams making it through every game uninjured. 2 RS FR and a RS Soph were able to step in at CB and both Safety spots with a minimal drop-off. That's great talent development.
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Dick's Fake Eye said...
That's a good point I never considered. Staff and program continuity has helped. I've noticed MSU keeps getting better and better. A good example was Jone/Gordon leaving, and the LB corps didn't miss a beat. Anxious to see If it happens again with Worthy's departure...
Question: When people say "MD can evaluate talent" is that done by evaluating film, then evaluating a kid in camp? What else do you evaluate? ACT score and grades? Do they interview him and try and determine his work ethic, his attitude, etc?
All of the above (sorry for the cop-out
). They really prefer to see the kid in person though. Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
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Monklife said...
I'm expecting Meyer to run Miller between the tackles over and over again.
It's an effective scheme to spread everyone out and then run that option up the middle, but I'm already tired of seeing it.
As far as MSU, this team will go as far as our QB takes us. Most people on this board haven't seen enough of Maxwell to make an informed evaluation. Dantonio seems to have a lot of confidence in him.
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Dr Leo Spaceman said...
Its probably half developing talent half identifying talent. The guys who assign stars aren't working for college football teams for a reason.
Credit goes to a coaching staff that has been firmly united with only two promotions in the past 7 years. But more than just developing the players, the coaches seem to know exactly what attributes they're looking for, position by position they have certain values that they place higher emphasis on and they go for those players... I almost compare it to the Billy Beane method of scouting, you find the undervalued attributes, both physical and mental, and you focus on finding players who do that...
Not to say our guys are out fighting for 2 and 3 stars and not offering 4 and 5 star talent, obviously we are... but there have only been a few highly ranked players who didn't work out thanks to fantastic S&C coaching.
But to really answer your question... no, we don't even hold a candle to Iowa. They're the best that has ever been. And ethical too!
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SpartanRocky said...
Guaranteed W? No. I do think MSU has a very good shot at the W though for 2 big reasons.
1) Game is @Spartan Stadium. It's hard to win on the road in the Big 10, and MSU hasn't lost at home since 2009.
2) When facing a team with new O/D systems, it's best to catch them earlier in the year. Among Big 10 teams, MSU faces the least-experienced tOSU team possible.
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Huburt said...
Thanks for the Info guys,
The funny thing about OSU is a good portion of are best players were 2/3 stars over the past 10 years. AJ Hawk, James Laurinaitis, Malcom Jenkins, just to name a few. This I think reaffirms the overal point that most of you are making that recruiting rankings don't mean much when it comes down to it. If i take my scarlet and gray colored glasses off I can even see that are 3 lowest rated recruits this year immediately jumped about 5 points a piece on this site after they committed to OSU. Now maybe they went back and looked at the film but I doubt it. I think they just bumped them because they committed to OSU. You can replace Bama LSU USC with OSU in this scenario and I bet the same thing happens.
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Huburt said...
For me as a OSU fan This game will be the measuring stick for my expectations for the rest of the season. If we can score on you I know we can score on the rest of the opponents we have on are schedule. I really hope we can get a quick score on MSU and force you to play from behind. I feel that its not necessary for us to do to win but it would help us out greatly. A lot of are players are loosing a lot of weight because speed is being emphasized so much under the new staff. I think that makes us better on D but if MSU scores first and is able to play with a lead I will get very nervous. I don't wanna see Bell getting a lot of carries early in the game and being affective. If that happens you will have a good chance of wearing are smaller D down.
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buckeyesparty said...
I am one Spartan who is worried about this game. I give MSU the nod more like 60/40 or even tighter. Our offense will have only had 4 weeks to work on passing game. If Max (who is very good, he is from my town and was a winner in everything he did at all levels and a GREAT character kid) does not get in sink with all the talented but INEXPERIENCED wide receivers, OSU will stuff the box and take away the run. Braxton's ability to hit the single big play then can become the difference in a low scoring game.
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Huburt said...
O that's happening, Everything is competitive with clear winners and losers, Winners get better gear food etc. I understand the down side of it but that will be a big part of OSU football with urban at the helm and it wont be subconscious. This is part of his system.
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SpartanRocky said...
Threshold question: How did you convince a pair of MSU co-eds to don a Buckeye and UM jersey for your avatar? You must be quite persuasive.
As to the rest of it, here's my explanation.
1) 4/5-star talent. Though MSU doesn't have loads of these players, there are more on the roster than you may think. By Rivals' count, there are 17 4-stars and a 5-star on MSU's roster this coming year. That's not tOSU #s, but it isn't chopped liver either. If you go across all services, I think the #s are closer to 25 or 30 overall. For instance, according to Rivals, MSU had 3 4-star recruits in the 2012 class. 247 had State with 4, as did Scout and ESPN. All in all, 6 guys out of a class of 18 had a 4-star rating. In short, there's probably more "star" talent on MSU's roster than you think.
2) Development. Take MSU's defense last year. There was 1 5-star (DE Gholston), 3 4-stars (WILL Norman, MIKE Bullough and SS Isaiah Lewis), 4 3-stars (DT Worthy, DE Rush, CB Johnny Adams, SAM Denicos Allen) and 3 2-stars (FS Robinson, CB Dennard, NT Kevin Pickleman).
Every single 1 of those 11 players received at least Hon. Mention All Big 10. Worthy was an AA, Rush a FR AA, Adams/Robinson got 1st team All-B1G nods, etc.
In short, the entire D played like you'd expect a high 3-star, or a 4-star to play. Dennard is the CB who ripped the ball away from one of tOSU's receivers in a one-on-one battle in the game this past year, and picked Aaron Murray twice in the bowl game. So you have guys who are expected to play that way, playing that way, and then you have prospects that the staff is developing.
It's kind of surprising to see the "least" talented area of the D, the secondary (2 2-stars, a 3-star and a 4-star) perform at a high level, right? IMHO, the secondary benefits greatly from having 2 DB coaches on the staff, with Dantonio and Barnett. That allows MSU to take guys like Robinson and Dennard; speedy athletes who were pretty raw out of HS and develop them into Big 10-quality starters. Those guys didn't have the DB background/skills out of HS to be rated highly, but had very good speed and solid frames. If you look at the LBs, just about everyone is either a 4-star or a high 3-star. I don't think a 2-star LB has been recruited since 2008 for MSU.
The DL really hasn't been great until this past year. You had Worthy, who I credit the staff for finding in OH, being an NFL player in the middle, combined with a 2-star in Pickelman who put it together for a solid RS SR year, with a 3-star Rush being a complete surprise (starting DE 6'7 280 pound Tyler Hoover was lost for the year after the 1st half of the opener), having a FR AA campaign and Will Gholston progressing how you'd expect a 5-star to progress.
In a "macro" sense, what really helps is staff continuity and a dedication to the same scheme. You have 5th year/4th year SRs who have ALL come up in the same system; in essence, they can act as mini-coaches on the field, lead drills over the summer, etc. That allows the coaches to a) spend time adding wrinkles to the existing schemes and b) advance the young guys along as a faster rate. By the time a kid's ready to start, he already has 2-3 years in the scheme/system, which allows for more guys to be "plugged in" without much drop-off. You may not know this, but MSU's secondary was pretty much a MASH unit by the end of the year, with only CB Adams making it through every game uninjured. 2 RS FR and a RS Soph were able to step in at CB and both Safety spots with a minimal drop-off. That's great talent development.
I know this was long and all over the place, so let me know if you'd like me to make anything more clear or if you have any follow-up questions, ask away.
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OSU fan with a couple questions