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Patton's speech and why he Demanded Excellence

  • CVSpartan said...

    The Turkish Mauser is one of your favorites? Really? Can you see the rear sight?

    yeah I haven't had a problem, of course I have only shot it once. It is my latest purchase and I like the Markings and weight, I have only had it a couple months and broke my arm 5 weeks ago so I am not the most experienced with it, but it seems similar to most guns of that era, that I am familiar with, with the sights. The Carcano is an absolute POS, and I can see why people doubt that Oswald got 3 accurate shots off in 6 seconds with it. But I just have it for History and occasional shooting purposes. The Mosin is a sweet gun, but is about as unique as a dollar bill. The Springfield, was my Grand Fathers that he brought back from the War and he Sporterized it. Still an Awesome gun, but it lost a lot of the historical value, The Arisaka is a pretty bad ass gun, but I haven't shot it much either. I just started collecting about 6 months ago and I usually buy them for under two hundred and do a little restore work on the stocks. So I am by no means an expert. I learn the gun as I go along. I really want the M1 Garande, but I have to start saving up and stop buying the other guns, that is probably the next one I pick up. So the Turkish Mauser is probably my favorite just for the Uniqueness compared to the other guns I have picked up. The German Mauser I haven't even shot yet, I have to do a lot of work on the stock but it will be a sweet gun. Right now it is in pieces as I was in the middle of sanding and steaming the dents when I broke my arm.

    signature image signature image

    DMBSparty ●

  • FIJI239 81 said...

    Patton was certainly pissed throughout 1944 about fuel and other logistics shortages because of the SHAEF strategy for a broad offensive from Holland and south through France. He thought his counterpart Montgomery was a tool and consumed fuel and ammo that he could use more effectively if he could lead a concentration of force and win, where Monty was always whining about tidying up his lines and needing a lot more to just throw a few punches at the enemy.

    Don't think fuel was a a big deal at Bastogne in December or January, though. The US first retreated through Bastogne once the German offensive pushed out those on the line on the West Wall. Some of them were pulled together for the defense of Bastogne by the lightly-armed airborne and some armor from the 9th sent to defend this crossroads, but at that point they had nothing for a counterattack.

    Fuel was much more critical for the 5th & 7th German Armies in the south - including the 116th and 2nd Panzer that bypassed Bastogne. They had supply problems anyway, and a less direct route west meant they needed more fuel. The US reinforced and defended Bastogne to deny the Germans this road network choke point. If the Germans had had taken this crossroads to defend their flanks it would have been easier for the Germans to support their spearheads with fuel and also much more difficult for Patton coming from the south to cut off this part of the Bulge.

    "A Time for Trumpets" is a war college read, and has excellent maps for anyone studying this battle.

    Thanks. I'll have to pick that up.

    Keeping the sunshiners in check since 2000.

    Tanfan

  • I had one but got rid of it. Maybe you are younger than me but that rear sight looks like a finger nail.

    I replaced it with a M1 Garand. Night and day difference. Far superior in every aspect.

    Συν ται η επι ται! Syn tai e epi tai! Ή ταν ή επί τας! E tan i epi tas!

    CVSpartan

  • Tanfan said...

    Thanks. I'll have to pick that up.

    You should. It's in paperback now, extremely well-written (the best IMHO] about the intel failure and sort of obsessed with the "Northern Shoulder" and the "1st SS Army" but has extensive detail about Bastogne and the "Southern Shoulder." But it's hard to follow unless you print out maps in advance and keep track of the offensive timeline. This author was a company commander so it has a lot of BOG [boots on ground] details that make it hard to follow as if you are looking at the big picture, but he has that stuff- it's just hard to pick out.

    Another good one one will be the future and 3rd in the trilogy of Rick Atkinson's excellent series that started with "An Army at Dawn" [invading N Africa]; followed by "The Day of Battle" [Italy] and his 3rd, which is the D-Day invasion and on to occupation. This guy will put it in more strategic terms but will certainly deal with the logistics (and fuel) issues both sides had to deal with. cool

    This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by FIJI239 81 on 4/30/2012 at 8:14 PM

    FIJI239 81 ●

  • MSULordyoda said...

    Actually, Hitler employed the same strategy in the East that Eisenhower did...a broad front strategy. Had both focused the offensive along a narrower corrider with heavy reinforcement to protect against counterattacks, Hitler's offensive would have worked, and the Western Allies could have crushed Germany quicker.

    My recollection is that after the first offensive the Germans followed essentially a two pronged attack. One focused on Moscow and the other on the oil fields of the Caucasus, but didn't have quite enough resources achieve success after dividing their attack that way. (A combination of factors led to the Russian success against this campaign -- transfer of troops from the Manchurian border, resistance of Leningrad sapping German resources, allied material aid.) The "broad offensive" aspects of the German attack were largely filling in operations along the flanks of the main attack many of which were conducted by secondary forces such as the Romanians.

    The German strategy in the west after D-Day was that they were hoping that inexperienced Allied leaders would allow their front and/or supply lines to be stretched thin to the point that they would be vulnerable to a counterattack. This was the case in the Ardennes in December 1944, but the Germans didn't have enough fuel of their own and weren't able to capture enough Allied fuel to push their attack home. The key effort in the Battle of the Bulge was at Bastogne (by the 101st Airborne among others) to slow the German advance enough that they couldn't capture enough supplies to keep rolling. Patton's attack was important, but once the sky cleared and the Germans were more or less out of fuel it didn't take a great feat of generalship to beat the Germans at the Bulge.

    Spartan86 ●

  • CVSpartan said...

    Excellent response. In addition to your information the allies also supplied Russia with several thousand fighter planes and tanks. Not sure about the numbers of tanks but at least in the hundreds.

    What do you think is the motivation of these revisionist historians?

    I never read a history book or watched a documentary about WWII that failed to give the Russians credit for playing a major role in defeating Germany.

    I believe it was about 6,000 tanks (3000 each from the US and Britain), and over 20,000 aircraft. In terms of percentage and importance, those were less vital than some of the other lend lease components that I mentioned. The tanks weren't the best. Not as good as the Soviets better tanks and not much of a match for the Germans. But they played a role in the numbers game and war of attrition on the Eastern Front. I think that a lot of the planes were transport aircraft more so than combat fighters/bombers. We didn't trust them enough to give our best military hardware.

    As for revisionist historians, in general (those that write books and make documentaries), it's the only way to be heard on a topic that has been essntially done to death. Try to come up with some sort of new or different point, or it's easy to get lost in the clutter. On the board, people just like to be contrarian on just about any topic, as they think it makes them sound intelligent.

    MiamiSpartan

  • DMBSparty said...

    You realize that Patton was a horrible General that was reckless with his troops right?

    He was an innovative commander, who knew how to use movement and surprise. As you can tell by his speech he was a great motivator.

    rodent

  • CVSpartan said...

    I had one but got rid of it. Maybe you are younger than me but that rear sight looks like a finger nail.

    I replaced it with a M1 Garand. Night and day difference. Far superior in every aspect.

    Yeah the rear sight is smaller and not the best, and I am 31 with good eyes, I don't need glasses. I guess I can see what the difference is. After your post I went and checked it out compared to the other guns and it is a bit different.

    And yeah the M1 Garande is an awesome gun. I want one and will be saving up for one. All my Antiques are shooters and I enjoy shooting them so I doubt I will be selling them. So like I said I am going to stop buying for a few months and pick up an M1. I have heard what you said and that is that they are Awesome guns. I also want to start shooting competitions with them. Either way I just like the older guns, they aren't typical hunting guns and have some history. The newest gun from the WWII era is 1942 and the oldest is 1917, the 1917 is more accurate then any rifle that I have ever shot.

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    DMBSparty ●

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