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wingfanjim ●
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D.Wags said...
I'm not worried about our receivers vs their receivers, I'm worried about our receivers vs their db's
And before you say "they should be more worried about our db's vs their wr's, I don't care, I know we're solid, we do need to work on that part of our offense.
wingfanjim ●
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Fort Wayne Dave
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Fort Wayne Dave said...
I think it is less a matter of who will start and more a matter of will it even be possible to come close to replacing what was lost this past year in the passing game. No doubt the receivers on the team now are talented and its not unreasonable to believe they are the fastest set of receivers the Spartans have had as a group ever. BUT..Think of what was lost.
3 senior starting wideouts, two tight ends and a senior QB....oh.. and by the way..anyone who doesn't recall just how very very good they ALL were needs to see replays of the BIG Championship and Outback Bowl games. State just didn't lose their entire starting receiving corp and their starting QB and TE .. they lost GREAT receivers/TE and a great QB..easily the best State has had as a group in decades. That's a hell of a lot to expect to replace without a drop off of significant proportions.
The problem is this. The replacements just haven't been able to get it together while waiting because of a variety of circumstances.
Fowler could be an outstanding receiver (former 4star) BUT.. he's not only been injured.. he keeps having recurring problems with the same injury that has kept him out MONTHS not just weeks... foot injuries can never go away. Think on this - He missed essentially ALL of last year and STILL couldn't play in the Spring game. Similar problems with Lippett.. highly inexperienced, lost time learning the position because of splitting reps as a db too and he too is not just injured but repeatedly injured. Plus, he's fast and smooth but can he catch the ball like Cunningham.. tough catches in heavy traffic? He's 6-2 but 20-30 pounds lighter than BJ With both these guys the fact that they can't seem to stay healthy is a big concern to me. They may never be.
Similarly, Ceasar was a huge recruit but lost all his redshirt time he could have used to gain experience due to injury. Someone also mentioned Sims Jr being injured but I think it was Mumphrey that lost time early in his career due to that (although he had a good Spring). Also Dion Sims has had that damn cast on his wrist since the Nebraska game! Geeeshh what is up with that ????
To make this mess even worse Maxwell has gotten very little game experience the past two years and then when he finally gets to work out with the 1's for 3 plus weeks in the Spring he freakin' sprains a knee.........simply dropping back for a pass??? god I hope he isn't one of these China Doll type of QBs the Spartans suffered with in the past.
All in all I think this is just too much to overcome with the schedule the Spartans have. I'm not saying the Spartans are going to suck because of it...or have a huge drop off this season.. or anything like that. But this is a big weakness right now as I see it. Easily the biggest concern on the team now. You don't realize how much the lack of a consistent and dependable (those are the words to underline ! ) passing game is to an offense. Remember, Cunningham and Martin had the dropsies early in their career, Nichol had to learn the position and Captain Kirk was not the qb early he was this past year as a Senior. Their performances this year were more than stellar in large part to years of experience and working together. That cohesiveness will be tough to replace and injuries caused the loss of making up some of that in the Spring. A dropped ball on 3rd and 8... poor route here... bad qb decision there.. and drives get killed or worse. You expect losing all the Spartans lost at qb and receiver/TE will be made up just like that with the group coming back considering their problems going in? Hard for me to buy that.
This post was edited by Tanfan on 5/17/2012 at 1:18 AM
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Fort Wayne Dave said...
I think it is less a matter of who will start and more a matter of will it even be possible to come close to replacing what was lost this past year in the passing game. No doubt the receivers on the team now are talented and its not unreasonable to believe they are the fastest set of receivers the Spartans have had as a group ever. BUT..Think of what was lost.
3 senior starting wideouts, two tight ends and a senior QB....oh.. and by the way..anyone who doesn't recall just how very very good they ALL were needs to see replays of the BIG Championship and Outback Bowl games. State just didn't lose their entire starting receiving corp and their starting QB and TE .. they lost GREAT receivers/TE and a great QB..easily the best State has had as a group in decades. That's a hell of a lot to expect to replace without a drop off of significant proportions.
The problem is this. The replacements just haven't been able to get it together while waiting because of a variety of circumstances.
Fowler could be an outstanding receiver (former 4star) BUT.. he's not only been injured.. he keeps having recurring problems with the same injury that has kept him out MONTHS not just weeks... foot injuries can never go away. Think on this - He missed essentially ALL of last year and STILL couldn't play in the Spring game. Similar problems with Lippett.. highly inexperienced, lost time learning the position because of splitting reps as a db too and he too is not just injured but repeatedly injured. Plus, he's fast and smooth but can he catch the ball like Cunningham.. tough catches in heavy traffic? He's 6-2 but 20-30 pounds lighter than BJ With both these guys the fact that they can't seem to stay healthy is a big concern to me. They may never be.
Similarly, Ceasar was a huge recruit but lost all his redshirt time he could have used to gain experience due to injury. Someone also mentioned Sims Jr being injured but I think it was Mumphrey that lost time early in his career due to that (although he had a good Spring). Also Dion Sims has had that damn cast on his wrist since the Nebraska game! Geeeshh what is up with that ????
To make this mess even worse Maxwell has gotten very little game experience the past two years and then when he finally gets to work out with the 1's for 3 plus weeks in the Spring he freakin' sprains a knee.........simply dropping back for a pass??? god I hope he isn't one of these China Doll type of QBs the Spartans suffered with in the past.
All in all I think this is just too much to overcome with the schedule the Spartans have. I'm not saying the Spartans are going to suck because of it...or have a huge drop off this season.. or anything like that. But this is a big weakness right now as I see it. Easily the biggest concern on the team now. You don't realize how much the lack of a consistent and dependable (those are the words to underline ! ) passing game is to an offense. Remember, Cunningham and Martin had the dropsies early in their career, Nichol had to learn the position and Captain Kirk was not the qb early he was this past year as a Senior. Their performances this year were more than stellar in large part to years of experience and working together. That cohesiveness will be tough to replace and injuries caused the loss of making up some of that in the Spring. A dropped ball on 3rd and 8... poor route here... bad qb decision there.. and drives get killed or worse. You expect losing all the Spartans lost at qb and receiver/TE will be made up just like that with the group coming back considering their problems going in? Hard for me to buy that.
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Fort Wayne Dave said...
I think it is less a matter of who will start and more a matter of will it even be possible to come close to replacing what was lost this past year in the passing game. No doubt the receivers on the team now are talented and its not unreasonable to believe they are the fastest set of receivers the Spartans have had as a group ever. BUT..Think of what was lost.
3 senior starting wideouts, two tight ends and a senior QB....oh.. and by the way..anyone who doesn't recall just how very very good they ALL were needs to see replays of the BIG Championship and Outback Bowl games. State just didn't lose their entire starting receiving corp and their starting QB and TE .. they lost GREAT receivers/TE and a great QB..easily the best State has had as a group in decades. That's a hell of a lot to expect to replace without a drop off of significant proportions.
The problem is this. The replacements just haven't been able to get it together while waiting because of a variety of circumstances.
Fowler could be an outstanding receiver (former 4star) BUT.. he's not only been injured.. he keeps having recurring problems with the same injury that has kept him out MONTHS not just weeks... foot injuries can never go away. Think on this - He missed essentially ALL of last year and STILL couldn't play in the Spring game. Similar problems with Lippett.. highly inexperienced, lost time learning the position because of splitting reps as a db too and he too is not just injured but repeatedly injured. Plus, he's fast and smooth but can he catch the ball like Cunningham.. tough catches in heavy traffic? He's 6-2 but 20-30 pounds lighter than BJ With both these guys the fact that they can't seem to stay healthy is a big concern to me. They may never be.
Similarly, Ceasar was a huge recruit but lost all his redshirt time he could have used to gain experience due to injury. Someone also mentioned Sims Jr being injured but I think it was Mumphrey that lost time early in his career due to that (although he had a good Spring). Also Dion Sims has had that damn cast on his wrist since the Nebraska game! Geeeshh what is up with that ????
To make this mess even worse Maxwell has gotten very little game experience the past two years and then when he finally gets to work out with the 1's for 3 plus weeks in the Spring he freakin' sprains a knee.........simply dropping back for a pass??? god I hope he isn't one of these China Doll type of QBs the Spartans suffered with in the past.
All in all I think this is just too much to overcome with the schedule the Spartans have. I'm not saying the Spartans are going to suck because of it...or have a huge drop off this season.. or anything like that. But this is a big weakness right now as I see it. Easily the biggest concern on the team now. You don't realize how much the lack of a consistent and dependable (those are the words to underline ! ) passing game is to an offense. Remember, Cunningham and Martin had the dropsies early in their career, Nichol had to learn the position and Captain Kirk was not the qb early he was this past year as a Senior. Their performances this year were more than stellar in large part to years of experience and working together. That cohesiveness will be tough to replace and injuries caused the loss of making up some of that in the Spring. A dropped ball on 3rd and 8... poor route here... bad qb decision there.. and drives get killed or worse. You expect losing all the Spartans lost at qb and receiver/TE will be made up just like that with the group coming back considering their problems going in? Hard for me to buy that.
wingfanjim ●
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htown3000 said...
When was the last time MSU was going into a season worried about skill positions on offense being their weakness with a stout defense. When was the last time we worried about winning games because our receivers didn't have experience? I think us MSU fans welcome those problems. The oline should be much better as well as the running backs. That will be the equalizer. Maxwell's performance will also be a big determine factor. Every 2-3 years MSU breaks in a new QB. And we had some good qbs that performed well enough their first season. And we have coach D, I trust his ability to prepare these young men.
This post was edited by Fort Wayne Dave on 5/17/2012 at 10:30 AM
Fort Wayne Dave
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wingfanjim said...
I don't think anybody said their wouldn't be a drop off...myself included. The point I was trying to make was that the Big Ten, as a conference, lost a ton WR talent after last season and few teams in the conference have the level of talented players behind those now graduated seniors that MSU has.
There is no question that the passing game is going to be the weakest part of MSU's team this fall. However, when you look across the board and see how weak the conference is at both QB and WR going into this season, MSU doesn't look any weaker than the majority of teams in the conference.
Also, you bring up the issue of experience at these positions and issues with drops that plagued our graduated seniors early in thee career. Ponder this. In 2008, when BJ and Martin were having those issues, BJ was a redshirt freshman, Martin was a true freshman, and Nichol was a backup QB sitting out his transfer year. Heck, our two best receivers were a former walk-on and a true sophomore. All we did was win 9 games that year (with a much worse defense).
Fowler, Mumphery, Lippett, and Arnett all have more college catches than BJ, Martin and Nichol had going info that season. Furthermore, unlike that 2008 WR corps, they have guys with more than two years experience. Fowler is in his 4th year, Mumphery and Lippett are entering year 3 and Arnett, Caesar, and Sims are in year 2. That means we have 6 WR with as much or more experience than the entire 2008 WR corps not named Blair White.
The injuries have been a concern, but those things happen. It's football, not tiddliwinks. Even with that, the Spring wasn't a total loss as both Caesar and Fowler were back in limited capacities by the end. Also, don't forget that WR is arguably the easiest position to transition to from high school. So even with limited experience, due to injuries, you can still get productivity out of that position.
Also, as far as experience at the QB, while he hasn't been in many games, Maxwell had one more year of grooming than Cousins did before taking over. He's in his 4th year in the program so it isn't like he is totally green out there. In fact, in an interview last fall, Cousins said Maxwell was further along in his development than Cousins was at the same point in his career.
In regards to his injury, it could have been as simple as making a bad plant at the back of a drop that did it. That stuff can happen, but it is pretty cowardly and chicken little on your part to worry about him being a China Doll over it. Especially when the staff said he could have played if it was a game week, but they felt he had already had enough reps in the spring that he didn't need them.
One last injury note, Sims had additional surgery on the wrist during the offseason. That's why he was back in a cast.
Bottom line is that this team is going to win by running the ball and playing tough defense. However, while it is not the strength of the team, I don't anticipated all the doom and gloom from the passing game some seem to be predicting.
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82msuspartan said...
There seems to be some concerns with the holdovers based on the fact that we brought in 5 new guys. So we have a group of about 10 guys all short on experience. Of that group Arnett, Burbridge and Madaris were only ones that were 4 star recruits so long term you would hope that is who would emerge. None of the 3 star guys have separated themselves yet. Burbridge still has to qualify and that is looking very questionable. I agree, Arnett seems logical to become the main guy and probably has more actual experience and maybe potential than any of the group. Lippett, Fowler, Ceasar and Sims all seem to constantly battle injuries and could get passed over by the young guys. What has to happen is a group of 3 or 4 must establish themselves very early in fall camp. The most consistent WR in spring was a little known walk-on. We cant afford to have ongoing competition and lineup changes as we get into the B1G season. This is easily the #1 area of concern going into the season after having such a great trio of BJ, Martin and Nichol.
"Losing Benenoch is a mortal blow from which this program can't recover"-T-Pain
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Thepostmen said...
I think that holding Maxwell out of the spring game was mostly "stratigizing" on Dantonio's part. I think Coach saw what he had over the first few days of practice, Maxwell took a bruise to the knee, and Coach said that's a good enough reason to keep his film off of Boise State's screen. Of course, it could be the opposite - that Maxwell is so terrible he's trying to hide it - but I'm going with the former. I think that the "maxwell and the WRs need time" argument doesn't hold that much water - those guys are going to be out catching passes every day this summer. The recievers need practice, but i'm not sure that the "chemistry" is really a problem.
And I also agree with whoever said it's not out recievers v. their recievers - it's the DBs we need to worry about. That' what I'm afraid of with these young guys - some guys know how to get open and some guys need a year or two to learn. It seems likely that this group is faster and more athletic than our previous WR group, but that doesn't mean they're better right now. I hope we've got some players, and I think some will shine, but I also think that some might take a year or two to become high level players.
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wingfanjim ●
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xwing said...
In MSUs way too early WR sweepstakes:
Sounds like Fowler is the clear number 1 as long as he stays healthy.
The pre season depth chart also has Mumphery and Lippett starting.
According to Maxwell: Madaris and Barksdale have been the most impressive freshman in practice (after the first two days).
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
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Who will start at the wide receiver position?