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You use your elbows to create space

  • The Pale Man said...

    Throwing elbows is a desperation move after you got trapped because you were too slow to outlet or pass the ball. Just rip the ball through and you can do it without elevating your elbows.

    Big guys should keep the ball up so the little guys can't get it so that's a nonissue.

    Try raising your hands above your head without your elbow extending outside the body line...almost impossible to do. If the defenders are allowed to bang up against the rebounders body, it is partially their fault.....if they make contact with the rebounder, no elbowing foul should be called.....have a halo rule like punt returns.

    ancientspartan

  • Defensive response to the "rip" move, where offensive players bring the ball through aggressively from one shoulder to another. At some point, defenders (Kramer was a pioneer in this regard) started sticking their face in the way and drawing contact.

    Anyone. Anyplace. Anytime.

    rookmsu ●

  • ancientspartan said...

    ....or, even better, much like a punt returner, put a rule in requiring a 1 yard halo around a rebounder and if contact is made before he is allowed to pass or dribble, it is an automatic foul. How can you raise your arms above your head to protect the ball without your elbows moving outward? I can see Wiscy practices now....learning how to aim their heads at elbows....the way it is, I think I would do this as well. Stupid rule....if it is flagrant and intentional, no problem; if it is because the defender is too close, shouldn't be called.

    On the Nix play, he first got slapped in the face, before getting fouled, and then the elbows came up. Why not make a slap to the face a foul? Oh, it is and the incompetent officials missed it. The pick that hurt Harris' shoulder was clearly a moving pick...and BSU did that all night...bumping cutters, with few calls. Thought that was a foul also....maybe all bumps should be made techinical flagrant 1s.

    Bingo. This rule is giving an advantage to the dirtiest players in the Big 10. That's embarrassing and idiotic to me. Nix literally did what he's (and almost every big man) been taught to do his entire life as soon he grabbed that rebound. He had two options. Throw a quick outlet or bring the ball down (which he's been taught not to do his entire career for obvious reasons) Even saying throw an outlet doesn't remotely the solve problem. To get any zip on an outlet, he's going to have to bend his wrists a bit. I dare anyone to simulate that motion (with arms above head or at eye level) and tell me their elbows don't flex (and extend) a little bit.

    sprtnbrn

  • The Pale Man said...

    Throwing elbows is a desperation move after you got trapped because you were too slow to outlet or pass the ball. Just rip the ball through and you can do it without elevating your elbows.

    Big guys should keep the ball up so the little guys can't get it so that's a nonissue.

    It's clear to me after reading your posts that you've never played basketball at any level.

    The ONLY thing that this rule does is punish the offensive player. The way it was interpreted last night, a defender is allowed to sit in your shorts without penalty, but as soon as you pivot it's going to be a foul.

    To anybody who thinks that you can protect the ball without having elbows out: bullshit. That's just asking to get the ball stolen. You need your arms bent to have a strong hold on the ball. It's what I teach the kids on my 7th grade team, it's what I was taught starting out in rec leagues as an 8-year old. Moving your upper body to clear space is a fundamental basketball move, it's ridiculous that the NCAA is trying to get rid of it.

    tRCMB - Visit at your own risk of being disgusted.

    Gob_Bluth ●

  • I have empathy for a defender in front court who is guarding his man closely and gets tagged with a swinging elbow.

    But zero for guys who in the backcourt are trying to hack the ball away from a rebounder. Everyone over 6 feet tall knows this is a bullshit move that almost allows the defender to foul without any call. The age old way of preventing it was to let them know an elbow may be coming if it keeps up.

    WBill19542

  • sprtnbrn said...

    Bingo. This rule is giving an advantage to the dirtiest players in the Big 10. That's embarrassing and idiotic to me. Nix literally did what he's (and almost every big man) been taught to do his entire life as soon he grabbed that rebound. He had two options. Throw a quick outlet or bring the ball down (which he's been taught not to do his entire career for obvious reasons) Even saying throw an outlet doesn't remotely the solve problem. To get any zip on an outlet, he's going to have to bend his wrists a bit. I dare anyone to simulate that motion (with arms above head or at eye level) and tell me their elbows don't flex (and extend) a little bit.

    There is a difference between clearing space with your elbows and throwing an outlet pass from above your head with your elbows extended.

    Spartan Punk

  • sprtnbrn said...

    Bingo. This rule is giving an advantage to the dirtiest players in the Big 10. That's embarrassing and idiotic to me. Nix literally did what he's (and almost every big man) been taught to do his entire life as soon he grabbed that rebound. He had two options. Throw a quick outlet or bring the ball down (which he's been taught not to do his entire career for obvious reasons) Even saying throw an outlet doesn't remotely the solve problem. To get any zip on an outlet, he's going to have to bend his wrists a bit. I dare anyone to simulate that motion (with arms above head or at eye level) and tell me their elbows don't flex (and extend) a little bit.

    It's the swinging of the elbows that's the problem. Your elbows can flex and extend - but you cannot swing the elbows. I think part of the problem with people grasping this rule is that for too long, the rebounder has been allowed to displace defenders for this type of play. I think the OP even said that it "has been taught for years" to clear space after you get ba rebound by swinging your elbows. At our officials meetings for my officials association, we have been told that swinging the elbows is an automatic flagrant even if you don't make contact. However, we have also been told to watch closely for fouls on the defender in these cases ie - pushing down low with the body, ANY contact on the arm of the rebounder, etc.

    SpartyOn82

  • Gob_Bluth said...

    It's clear to me after reading your posts that you've never played basketball at any level.

    The ONLY thing that this rule does is punish the offensive player. The way it was interpreted last night, a defender is allowed to sit in your shorts without penalty, but as soon as you pivot it's going to be a foul.

    To anybody who thinks that you can protect the ball without having elbows out: bullshit. That's just asking to get the ball stolen. You need your arms bent to have a strong hold on the ball. It's what I teach the kids on my 7th grade team, it's what I was taught starting out in rec leagues as an 8-year old. Moving your upper body to clear space is a fundamental basketball move, it's ridiculous that the NCAA is trying to get rid of it.

    You can still have your arms bent and elbows out, just not at head level. Has to be shoulder level or below. Again, stupid rule.

    Spartan Punk

  • Gob_Bluth said...

    . Moving your upper body to clear space is a fundamental basketball move,

    And a foul every time. You cannot clear space like that. You should teach your 7th graders the rules instead of "old school" basketball. They'll be much better off.

    SpartyOn82

  • SpartyOn82 said...

    It's the swinging of the elbows that's the problem. Your elbows can flex and extend - but you cannot swing the elbows. I think part of the problem with people grasping this rule is that for too long, the rebounder has been allowed to displace defenders for this type of play. I think the OP even said that it "has been taught for years" to clear space after you get ba rebound by swinging your elbows. At our officials meetings for my officials association, we have been told that swinging the elbows is an automatic flagrant even if you don't make contact. However, we have also been told to watch closely for fouls on the defender in these cases ie - pushing down low with the body, ANY contact on the arm of the rebounder, etc.

    Pussification of America at its finest.

    Charlie Kelly

  • Spartan Punk said...

    You can still have your arms bent and elbows out, just not at head level. Has to be shoulder level or below. Again, stupid rule.

    Definitely a stupid rule. Every time Nix brought his arms and the ball below his shoulders against UConn, some midget forced a turnover.

    tRCMB - Visit at your own risk of being disgusted.

    Gob_Bluth ●

  • SpartyOn82 said...

    And a foul every time. You cannot clear space like that. You should teach your 7th graders the rules instead of "old school" basketball. They'll be much better off.

    lol You're dead wrong. I'm not teaching my kids to swing their elbows a la Purdue's Kramer. I'm teaching them to not keep the ball in a vulnerable position when there are defenders around. And, I hope you're sitting down, this sometimes involves moving your elbows.

    tRCMB - Visit at your own risk of being disgusted.

    Gob_Bluth ●

  • SpartyOn82 said...

    And a foul every time. You cannot clear space like that. You should teach your 7th graders the rules instead of "old school" basketball. They'll be much better off.

    and a stupid rule and call.............................

    no one here is saying, swing your elbows and throw them, they are saying pivot with your elbows out and be strong with the ball.

    so since you are an official and i am a coach tell me what I am supposed to teach my girls, get rebound and then what?

    how are they supposed to turn and look up court without it looking as if their elbows are swinging while they are pivoting?

    This post was edited by AUAlum06 on 11/21/2012 at 7:16 AM

    signature image

    AUAlum06

  • Gob_Bluth said...

    lol You're dead wrong. I'm not teaching my kids to swing their elbows a la Purdue's Kramer. I'm teaching them to not keep the ball in a vulnerable position when there are defenders around. And, I hope you're sitting down, this sometimes involves moving your elbows.

    and if this is going to be an automatic flagrant, contact or no. then it is going to be a very long basketball season

    so what are we supposed to teach?

    signature image

    AUAlum06

  • AUAlum06 said...

    That is the way basketball has been taught since the beginning of time. As a coach, I am really struggling to see what you are supposed to teach with this. Get a rebound, be strong with the ball, if you get someone they will think twice about getting in your grill again. Refs don't do a good job of keeping people off from you after you grab a rebound, so you have to do it yourself. If someone takes a head shot so be it.

    Not liking where basketball and football are going, with this emphasis on protecting the head.

    Yeah. Because we should just ignore CTE and all of the symptoms/side effects of it. We need these guys to stop being sissies so we can be entertained and they can be suicidal at 45.

    Totally ignorant statement.

    signature image signature image signature image

    Punisher99

  • AUAlum06 said...

    and if this is going to be an automatic flagrant, contact or no. then it is going to be a very long basketball season

    so what are we supposed to teach?

    I think you are supposed to teach them to go play volleyball or join the swim team or something along those lines. If what the ref posters above have said is true, basketball is dying.

    Charlie Kelly

  • Punisher99 said...

    Yeah. Because we should just ignore CTE and all of the symptoms/side effects of it. We need these guys to stop being sissies so we can be entertained and they can be suicidal at 45.

    Totally ignorant statement.

    totally ignorant response

    again, no one is saying throw a cheap shot elbow to someone's head

    signature image

    AUAlum06

  • Charlie Kelly said...

    I think you are supposed to teach them to go play volleyball or join the swim team or something along those lines. If what the ref posters above have said is true, basketball is dying.

    better outlaw spiking in volleyball, someone might take a head shot and get a concussion

    signature image

    AUAlum06

  • AUAlum06 said...

    totally ignorant response

    again, no one is saying throw a cheap shot elbow to someone's head

    I'm responding to you having a problem with this "new emphasis on protecting the head"

    Have you had your head in the sand? This shit is real, whether you "tough guys" like it or not. To ignore it or act like it isn't important is just....wrong. Its an issue

    signature image signature image signature image

    Punisher99

  • Punisher99 said...

    I'm responding to you having a problem with this "new emphasis on protecting the head"

    Have you had your head in the sand? This shit is real, whether you "tough guys" like it or not. To ignore it or act like it isn't important is just....wrong. Its an issue

    agree, it is an issue and have no problem with getting rid of the cheap shots to the head

    however, last night with Nix was a basketball play, it happens, no way that can be flagrant

    guess what contact to the head is going to happen, no matter how many rules you make up

    if you want to avoid it, don't play

    again, what should have Nix done instead?

    what should I be teaching my girls to do instead?

    signature image

    AUAlum06

  • Terrible rule. Violates the rule of verticality and entitled space as well. This rule is a kin to calling every block a charge regardless of who established position.

    blanch32

  • AUAlum06 said...

    again, what should have Nix done instead?

    what should I be teaching my girls to do instead?

    and I'm not sure Nix even knew the second guy was behind him.

    WBill19542

  • blanch32 said...

    Terrible rule. Violates the rule of verticality and entitled space as well. This rule is a kin to calling every block a charge regardless of who established position.

    i'd be fine if they eliminated the charge and everything was a block

    signature image

    AUAlum06

  • SpartyOn82 said...

    It's the swinging of the elbows that's the problem. Your elbows can flex and extend - but you cannot swing the elbows. I think part of the problem with people grasping this rule is that for too long, the rebounder has been allowed to displace defenders for this type of play. I think the OP even said that it "has been taught for years" to clear space after you get ba rebound by swinging your elbows. At our officials meetings for my officials association, we have been told that swinging the elbows is an automatic flagrant even if you don't make contact. However, we have also been told to watch closely for fouls on the defender in these cases ie - pushing down low with the body, ANY contact on the arm of the rebounder, etc.

    If I dont misremember, on the Nix play, the whistle initially blew for a reach in foul on Boise?.. Boise coach then lobbied for an elbowing flagrant on Nix. In my opinion, if a foul is called on the defender first there should be no elbowing foul unless it is deemed to be a malicious elbow.

    DETFAN22517

  • Gob_Bluth said...

    You're dead wrong. I'm not teaching my kids to swing their elbows a la Purdue's Kramer. I'm teaching them to not keep the ball in a vulnerable position when there are defenders around. And, I hope you're sitting down, this sometimes involves moving your elbows.

    Your exact quote was "Moving your upper body to clear space is a fundamental basketball move". This is a clear foul. That's alls I'm saying.

    SpartyOn82

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