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Who gives a shit if the college kid has pro potential..
I do not care about that and don't want recruiting rankings for COLLEGE to be influenced by the ability to play in the NFL
Finley WILL be better than Dawson
Finley is a prototype tackle, Dawson is more of an OG. Both will be very good imo.
This. Finley is a stud, but I think Dawson will be one of the few scum recruits that pan out.
I am just extremely happy to have Dennis aboard. Without him, I think most of those who already complained about the trench recruiting would find the closest bridge and leap.
"Stats are for Losers." - Pat "Nardawg" Narduzzi
Welcome to my on-going struggle with JC and the rest of the 247 ranking guys.
Me: It makes no sense to judge college recruiting rankings on pro potential.
JC: It's the way we've always done them. We're going to rank a 6'5 260 pounder above a 6'1 230 pounder at DE, even if the 6'1 230 pounder could have a better college career and the 6'5 guy is a bit of a tweener.
Me: Well, I'd take Elvis Dumervil over Vernon Gholston any day of the week.
JC: . . . . . . .
This post was edited by MalibuMan 17 months ago
Michigan State does not and will not run the 3-4 defense.
That is completely and utterly beside the point...
I think so too. But reagrdless... Some how Wilcher will get blamed
Who is JC?
Coaches who can outline plays on a black board are a dime a dozen. The ones who win get inside their player and motivate.
(Cue Mormon missionaries)
While I agree with laudable sentiments about Brady Hoke being awfully highly-rated for a guy whose biggest accomplishment is a widely-derided BCS berth followed by a win that included a center catching a deflected pass on a fake field goal, I think some of U of Ms kids are probably going to be pretty good. Including David Dawson, who MSU seemed quite ready to take.
I don't come over here often, but this post caught my eye.
Just for a comparison, I took the time to get the star rankings from Rivals for the SEC All Conference, Didn't use 247 rankings because they wouldn't have existed for a number of players. Also, didn't list the names, but anyone can look them up.
Offense - 4 3*'s 7 4*'s Avg: 3.64
Defense - 2 3*'s 4 4*'s 5 5*'s (WOW) Avg: 4.27
Where it might appear that the Big Ten's best players were underrated by the gurus lending some credibility to the side that stars mean little, it also seems the 'experts' got it right in SEC country and stars can be an accurate gauge of how good a player is. Small sample size to draw any definitive conclusions, but it also shows why the SEC is dominant, especially on defense.
This post was edited by Frank Ricard 17 months ago
Definitely not disagreeing with you because those are some pretty telling stats. But to offer another possible explanation, it could also indicate the lack of a true Midwest recruiting focus from rivals. That has been a point of contention for many over the years. Either way, it's been hard to argue wuth the SEC's success, especially on the defensive side of the ball.
I was also thinking along the same lines as you were in that Rivals (and probably all the services) discount a guy from the midwest. I guess I was trying to be diplomatic, but I stuck to the phrase that the gurus underrated our conference and that their ratings meant little. You stated it a little stronger. I didn't want to flat out say that Rivals lacked a true Midwest recuiting focus because we're only looking at 1 year.
What is surprising that no 5*'s was on the B1G list. I'm not about to look it up, but my guess is that UM and OSU have the VAST majority of 5*'s on the roster. Since none of them made the list, it also might show a bias towards to the two programs when it comes to doling out stars. Again, someone (not me) would have to look at this for more than the 1 year. I do know that Mizzou, 'Bama, UF, and South Carolina were the teams with 5*'s (UF had 2), which at first glance implies that the ratings were fairly objective and not overemphasizing one program when it didn't warrant it.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Frank Ricard 17 months ago
This was posted on tBB showing the starters for the 2 teams that played for the National Championship and the all-SEC team.
LT Cyrus Kouandjio: 5*
LG Chance Warmack: 3*
C Barrett Jones: 4*
RG Anthony Steen: 3*
RT D.J. Fluker: 5*
TE M. Williams: 4*
TE Brian Vogler: 4*
QB AJ McCarron: 4*
RB Eddie Lacy: 4* (Yeldon was his backup ran for over 1,000 as a true freshman, 5*)
X Amari Cooper: 4*
Z Kevin Norwood: 4*
Average rating of 4*
DE Ed Stinson: 4*
NG Jesse Williams: 4*
DE Damion Square: 3*
SAM Adrian Hubbard: 4*
MIKE Trey Depriest: 4*
WILL C.J. Mosley: 4*
JACK Xzavier Dickson: 4*
CB Deion Belue: 3* (Milliner wasn't listed as a starter and is All-SEC 5*)
CB Vinnie Sunseri: 3*
S Robert Lester: 4*
S H. Clinton-Dix: 5*
Average rating of 3.8*
WR JONES, TJ: 4*
WR? NIKLAS: 4*
LT MARTIN, Z.: 4*
LG WATT: 4*
C CAVE: 4*
RG GOLIC, M.: 3*
RT LOMBARD: 4*
QB GOLSON: 3*
RB RIDDICK: 4*
TE EIFERT: 3*
WR KOYACK: 4*
Offense average of 3.7*
Defense for ND,
DE LEWIS-MOORE: 4*
NG NIX: 4*
DE TUITT: 5*
OLB SHEMBO: 4*
ILB FOX: 4*
ILB TE'O: 5*
OLB SPOND: 4*
CB RUSSELL: 4*
S MOTTA: 4*
S FARLEY: 3*
CB JACKSON: 3*
SEC 1st team offense,
TE - Mychal Rivera, Tennessee: 3*
OL - Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M: 4*
Chance Warmack, Alabama: 5*
D.J. Fluker, Alabama: 5*
Jake Matthews, Texas A&M: 4*
C - Barrett Jones, Alabama: 4*
WR - Cobi Hamilton, Arkansas: 3*
Jordan Matthews, Vanderbilt: 3*
QB - Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M: 3*
RB - Mike Gillislee, Florida: 4*
Eddie Lacy, Alabama: 4*
AP - Cordarrelle Patterson, Tennessee: 4*
SEC 1st team defense,
DL - Jadeveon Clowney, South Carolina: 5*
Sam Montgomery, LSU: 4*
Damontre Moore, Texas A&M: 3*
Sharrif Floyd, Florida: 5*
LB - Jarvis Jones, Georgia: 4*
C.J. Mosley, Alabama: 4*
Kevin Minter, LSU: 4*
DB - Dee Milliner, Alabama: 5*
Matt Elam, Florida: 5*
Eric Reid, LSU: 4*
Johnthan Banks, Mississippi State: 3*
Average ranking of 4.18*
While I'd like to think that our conference is as good as any other, my thinking is that when the highly rated guys are doing well, that makes your conference much better - only because the best raw athletes are doing well. When walk-ons are in your all-conference team, these are generally the less athletic, high-awareness, high-effort guys. Don't get me wrong, I like to see when "normal guys" do well. However, when a guy like Abbrederis is on the all-conference team, the raw, physical talent level isn't elite. Physically elite guys performing at a high level, along with oversigning, is a big reason why the SEC is so dominant right now.
Busts are going to happen no matter how highly rated a guy is. However, if coaching stays the same and we continue to get guys that are bigger, stronger, and faster, then the program will continue to improve. I do NOT think we're going back to the "big 2 little 8" era, but there's no doubt OSU and UM are recruiting at a different level than the rest of the conference. A blessing of the RichRod era was that he recruited a lot of lower rated guys and couldn't coach them up. Outside of Denard, they're not really putting any elite level athletes on the field. Per rivals, Hoke recruited more 5 stars in his first full year (2), than RichRod did in his entire UM tenure (1). They got another 5 star kid this year. The last two RichRod years were 70.2% three stars. This year, they're 63% four stars.
This is not a post to say anything about how good or bad our class is or how good or bad UM's class is, but rather I'm saying it's good for the conference that everyone starts getting better athletes. I think we're going to be competitive with the so called elites of the conference going forward and this will make us more competitive with the SEC come bowl season.
The only players rated as a 5* that played last year for Michigan were DTs true Sr Will Campbell and true Fr Ondre Pipkins. OG Kyle Kalis red shirted. I am not sure about tOSU.
Looking at the list of the all-B1G team and how many of those players are nationally elite at their position. There is a reason the B1G is considered down and the lack of nationally elite talent on the all-B1G team shows it.
I think this is right. I might argue the B1G defense is closer to SEC. While note Bama-like, I think MSU's defense is as good as "most" SEC defenses. UM stayed with SC for most of the game. Before that, MSU beat SEC East Champ Georgia. OSU being bowl ineligible, but I'm pretty sure they would beat most SEC teams. Just my uninformed opinion, but I think where the B1G fails is in the speed dept. and just fielding amazing athletes at skill positions like WR or DB. Certainly, MSU's offense was MAC-level by comparison. I don't know what this means in terms of future wins, but I'm pleased to see MSU trying to collect more Florida and Georgia players than ever before. Many of these kids play some form of organized football almost year round, play in bigger conferences with bigger schools and against tougher competition -- so I think many are just "ready" for college football more than many northern recruits.
But overall I agree with your point, and as the general populations continues to migrate South, I think we'll continue to see mostly SEC dominance (and TX will return someday after Mack Brown leaves) unless our schools start pushing harder into those states.
On top of the population shift to the south, the weather helps the advancement of outdoor sports competition. Once winter hits in the north, kids move indoors to play basketball, wrestling, hockey and the such. The southern kids are playing football year round. Core 6 and other programs are helping the regional elite talent, but that is small compared to what they have in place in the south. Northern kids have just as much physical abilities as those in the south, but they aren't refining the football skill set on a day today, week to week, month to month basis as they do in the south.
Agree. My point above reflects the idea that kids are more "ready" for big time college football having played it in some organized fashion year-round. And going deeper into unproven theories....winter is when a lot of people up north pack on the pounds due to less activity. I wonder if there are more conditioning needs for northern kids in the Spring vs. their southern counterparts. Basketball might keep some kids active, but most football players aren't also playing b-ball, so they're either working out on their own or embracing northern sloth (like me).
Or maybe it means that the recruiting rankings are accurately rating SEC recruits, but doing a poor job of evaluating Midwest talent?
This is demonstrably false. As been pointed out many times, RR's recruiting classes all ranked in the top 10 nationally except one, and that one was something 12th or 13th.
laconophilia is everywhere...
I was thinking that RichRod's last two full years of coaching, 2010 (ranked 20 per Rivals) and 2011 (21), were not on par with Hoke's recruiting so far, but I definitely got owned as Jandy pointed out.
The overall point is that they were still pretty darn good.
Hoke's 1st class, 2011, wasn't great, especially if you look at attrition.
Bottom line here: MSU is bringing in enough raw talent to compete in the Big 10. Only UM and tOSU are bringing in demonstrably more "raw" talent; Nebraska is a little ahead, Wisconsin and PSU are a little behind, everyone else is farther behind (Iowa is really dropping off).
Given that tOSU isn't on the schedule for at least the next 2 years, that leaves UM as the only Big 10 opponent that's bringing in more "star" talent. I don't see any Spartans quaking in their boots over that . . .
That's what I said in my original post. I didn't mean to imply that UM was getting piss poor classes. Just that they weren't on par with what they're getting now. I'll stress these two parts of my original post:
(1) I do NOT think we're going back to the "big 2 little 8" era
(2) The last two RichRod years were 70.2% three stars. This year, they're 63% four stars
I'm not trying to be argumentative. You know way more about the program and the sport in general than I ever will Rocky. I just have an opinion that elite recruits are better raw athletes than lower rated recruits. Consistently getting better raw athletes will, in the long run, generally lead to better teams. I feel like we're saying the same thing.
I will say that ratings do not mean you can't be successful in college. For example, Kellen Moore had a noodle arm and was insanely successful at Boise St. Per chairman meow's post above explaining Rivals' methodology, he'd STILL be lowly rated as a recruit just because he has limited pro potential.
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