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You think the Gov. who has 24/7 MSP security for himself, his wife and daughters wants to do something that would put himself in harm's way? What would happen if the House Speaker's home catches on fire? Fire dept. might just drag their feet?
Teachers, state county and municipal employees are the designated whipping boys of the Mackinac Center and the MI GOP for nearly 3 decades. Snyder kept his mouth shut and let people vote for him thinking he wasn't going to help MI return to the early 1930's before the Flint Sit-Down strike.
Open question for the anti-teacher's union folks... Are there any "good" unions? In any industry?
There must be...right? I just can't think of any off of the top of my head.
But that isn't really the issue. How do you measure what "good" means. If they fight for better pay and benefits or at least make sure the pay and benefits are competitive that is one thing that you could use to define them as good. If they take member dues and get political and support ideologies that aren't supported by the member, that is one thing you could use to define them as "not good".
Can you honestly have it both ways? I think a lot of workers don't like the whole "taxation without representation" aspect of the dues.
I love how you think that's a significant expense! Normal people piss that away on paper clips.
How do you think unions fit within a libertarian viewpoint?
The Airline Pilots Association, for one, is a well-functioning union from my perspective.
the question here isn't about teacher compensation, it is about the quality of our public education system. teachers, after all, are civil servants, at least those who are employed in our public schools.
I think we should take some of these people, and send 'em up to Bear Mountain for a picnic.
fishheadx2=dumb as a box of rocks.
"No one cares what you know, until they know how much you care." Mark Dantonio
All these arguments, it's like watching rats fight over the same piece of cheese.
IMO, (if I may have one) the real problem is state "rights" versus federal "rights".
People bitch about how much "the other guy" makes and they still go fight over a cheap TV at WalMart Thanksgiving night. Politicians don't care. They still get theirs.
Fuck it, I'm retiring in 013. I get a pension. That is until one of these idiot political parties turns you against me just so you are stupid enough to vote for them.
In an odd throw back mentality, I found the (very nice) photo on the LSJ front page yesterday (Sat - 3 State police on their way to the capitol for crowd control) mildly telling. The Pols screw the Proles with the exception of law enforcement and firefighters; gotta have someone to control the masses and keep them from burning down their houses.
Kinda feel bad for these civil servants caught in the middle - a typical divide and conquer strategy.
I have no idea. I assume that a libertarian would opppose organized labor but I don't know. They aren't big fans of organized bureaucracies and I figure this is just another one.
I have some questions for those who support the RTWFL law. If a person is hired by a company with a union, but chooses not to join the union, or pay dues to the union to bargain for him, but still reaps all the benefits the union obtains for the workers, doesn't that make them a freebooter? And aren't connies/repubs supposed to be against freebooters?
Another question, if the same person gets in trouble with the employer by doing something that could potentially cost that person his job, and the union refuses to intervene to help him save his job as the union would do for it's members, would you be okay with that?
0. I don't know what RTWFL is. Ah, Right to Work For Less? Again, I still don't know what that is; I thought we were talking about Right to Work laws.
1. There's a similar organization that doesn't seem to nearly get the degree of scrutiny about this: it's called the NRA. There's surprising parallels to it: the NRA does a great job of protecting general gun rights, but also completely steps over bounds when it comes to assault weapons and whatnot. In a similar vein, unions are currently creating a gap between workers and fair pay that the market commands.
2. Let me see: if I do something that should potentially cost me my job, THEN I SHOULD LOSE MY JOB. 82 percent of Michigan's employed have employment at will contracts, and can be fired without cause (anti-discrimination laws provide a degree of protection).
Not only should the union refuse to intervene, but it should also ALWAYS refuse to intervene for dues-paying workers that are insubordinate! And that's the issue most people have with unions in the first place: the grounds for firing an employee become far, far, more blurry than those for at-will employees.
This post was edited by michimoby 19 months ago
I don't know what a freebooter is. Sorry.
As far as your second question goes, I would be more than okay with that. That is why we don't want unions in the workplace to begin with. They get in the way when we try to nuke inept workers.
RTWFL is the proper term, because that is what they do.
Equating the NRA and unions is really stretching the false equivalency you connies seem to always do. And workers receiving a living wage is so horrible that unions have no business asking for it. Please say you aren't serious when you say that. Please say you aren't really that type of person.
I knew that would be your answer. Thanks for not disappointing. Why do you hate working people?
Insubordination? Really? Yeah, it's too bad that workers want to have a voice in their employment conditions. I mean no business in history has ever done anything that goes against the health and safety of its workers so why did working people even feel the need to start unions in the first place?
Your loathing for people who actually work isn't unexpected nor surprising. But it is sad.
Since you are probably a freebooter, is am sure you do know what one is.
Yep, workers shouldn't have rights. I know that's your stance and that's why you only hire illegals to slap paint on your slum properties.
"I hate working people".
Brilliant, brilliant deduction -- given that I spend 60+ hours per week, uh, "not working", I shouldn't be concerned AT ALL with a living wage.
And we're not in the age of Upton Sinclair anymore, Hatter. Worker conditions in the United States have never been safer, and the union had an incredibly important role in ensuring this occurred -- this is a non-issue now, and unions are to thank for their work in the past.
Let me provide an anecdote: as an engineer, I knew the components I designed better than anyone else. I knew with very specific detail the materials, the mechanical functionality, etc. etc. and I knew the specific manufacturing process. I also had the final decision on whether or not a defective part should pass inspection and be installed in an aircraft engine designed to safely carry thousands of people per year to their destinations.
My question to you: WHY did the UAW deem me as a threat when I walked onto the shop floor and began examining defective components? Was someone's job at risk to the point that they chose to file a grievance against me, which ultimately could have put MY job at risk?
It's actions like that which make me believe, empirically, that some unions have stepped out of the realm of rational collective bargaining and into the world of the borderline absurd.
I'm sure - given your attitude - that there were many reasons people hate you enough to grieve you.
It sure is nice when Indiana and Mississippi become the models to follow in the race to the bottom.
As far as the second question... Shouldn't the unions be forced to help those that opted not pay union dues in the spirit of Obamacare?
I'm not sure I agree?
I've got a salaried job in a field other than education.
I'm not represented by a union, broadly speaking why do teachers need to be represented by a union?
Tell it to the meatpackers.
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So you Michimoby's plan is to end worker's rights - get rid of high paying middle class jobs - who do you expect to do this work? Migrants?
I consider myself a libertarian but my view on unions is unlibertarian. The issue is the timing, and at this time we are so far removed from the libertarian ideals that would make unions useless.
We are at a time when the human perspective is split. Those in power believe they have a human mindset, and yet they see those below them, not as humans, but as machine power. They can casually disregard the less well off man as disposable, and by seeing them as disposable, they are worthless.
However the great flaw in those middle/ middle upper management or those with marginal power is they can not see themselves as being as disposable as those below him. In truth, technology has virtually made human labor, and business management obsolete, while the partnership those types have to their employers are weaker than ever and could only be one weak business quarter away from the unemployment line.
I side with the common man. I side with those, who their entire lives, have had no choice but to participate in a system that has no concern for any one person.
The indoctrinated will no longer be able to deny it, only defend it.
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