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Robertoo said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/did-jesus-exist/2012/04/04/gIQAjIanvS_blog.html

Did Jesus Exist? Almost certainly yes.

Because of the outspoken and surprisingly influential conspiracy theorists among us, I have recently written a book that sets forth the consensus-view on this question, held by virtually everyone else, and certainly by all the acknowledged experts in the field.

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PassTheRock said...

http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com/existed.php

Is there any historical proof that Jesus existed?

The ancient historical record provides examples of writers, philosophers and historians who lived during or not long after the time Jesus is believed to have lived and who testify to the fact that he was a real person. We will look at what some of these people have said. Cornelius Tacitus

Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record. Lucian of Samosata

Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus. Suetonius

Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ]. Pliny the Younger

Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god. Thallus and Phlegon

Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died. Mara Bar-Serapion

Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus. Josephus

Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead! The four Gospels

The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels.

Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously!

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Madhatter536 said...

Every single person you mentioned is using hearsay evidence, none were actually alive or in the region where Jesus allegedly lived. And none of the Gospels were written during Jesus's time, or by anyone who allegedly knew him. They are ALL written at least 40 years or more after the crucifiction was supposed to have happened, and given the normal lifespan of people during that period, none of them could have possibly been present at any of the events. So once again, all of your proof is smoke and mirrors.

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RQA said...

Well by these standards we need to take back Carl Sandburg's Pulitzer Prize. He was not alive when Lincoln was alive.

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General Grant said...

You know what the amazing thing is? Us Christians do the same.

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TrapperGus said...

The question of validity does not apply to fundimental beliefs...they all require Faith...including the belief that this existance in which we type on computers exists...

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Madhatter536 said...

Of course validity applies to fundamental beliefs. Do you honestly think if someone of faith didn't think their view was valid, they would hold to that faith? Logic fail trapper.

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RQA said...

I love to watch the leftists flail against one another.

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spartanfan25 said...

that's not all christians. it's part of the intolerable assholes in the world. there's always factions of a group that are way off base with reality in any religion or political party

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Enrico Palazzo said...

unless they're gay. Hell, right now your lobby is successfully passing bills to exempt Christians from anti-bullying laws so Christians can bully and ridicule people, in particular homosexuals, and claim it's an exercise of their religious faith and beliefs.

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Madhatter536 said...

Sandburg's writings on Lincoln are indeed based on the stories told by other people. No argument there. There is one huge difference that I notice you convienently forgot to mention. There is a multitude of documentation of Lincoln written by people who were actually alive when Lincoln was alive, and who were actual witnesses to the events they wrote about. No such evidence exists about Jesus. But nice try anyway.

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Madhatter536 said...

Every single person you mentioned is using hearsay evidence, none were actually alive or in the region where Jesus allegedly lived. And none of the Gospels were written during Jesus's time, or by anyone who allegedly knew him. They are ALL written at least 40 years or more after the crucifiction was supposed to have happened, and given the normal lifespan of people during that period, none of them could have possibly been present at any of the events. So once again, all of your proof is smoke and mirrors.

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PassTheRock said...

Perhaps some of the evidence is circumstantial, but as Ronald Goldman's father would say--the evidence is overwhelming.

By the way, although hearsay is not admissible in court, it doesn't mean it isn't true, and so far you have provided no evidence to prove the opposite.

1. So far we have from you--'You looked at the "dogma" , decided against it, joined the Catholic church, and then left, but still point at the crucifix at those who show up at your door and then close the door in their face'.

Since you pointed at the Crucifix---this must mean he is real, since he is real by your own faith in pointing at the Crucifix. Did you point at the Crucifix and say he was fake? No you didn't. Or you would have said so. Therefore, your own beliefs has moved you to point at the Crucifix and for you to believe he exists although you try to deny him.

Based on that, not only have you not not presented any evidence, you haven't even provided an opening statement why he doesn't exist. Which i am sure we would all be interested in, and in fact, these two threads have only strengthened my faith that their is a God.

1. We can look that Jesus DID exist, he was at least a "great man" (If not God--although i think he was) to even doubters.

2. Why was he great? He was great because he healed people and did miracles and did things no one else could.

3. Prayer has been scientifically proven.

4. Archaeological digs are consistent and not inconsistent with his existence.

5. Scientists have said the Turin is "A DNA match" from someone from Jerusalem (50-mile radius pollen match), and this Shroud has survived for thousands of years. (Highly unlikely this cloth would have survived had it not been important.

6. Crucifixions were common for that time period.

7. Someone being the "King of Jews" was crucified.

8. The chances of it being an elaborate hoax were millions to one and it would not have survived and been exposed somewhere along the way.

9.The Dead Sea scrolls are first century or older writings that show the language and customs of some Jews of Jesus' time.[108] According to clergyman and New Testament scholar Henry Chadwick, similar uses of languages and viewpoints recorded in the New Testament and the Dead Sea scrolls are valuable in showing that the New Testament portrays the first century period that it reports and is not a product of a later period

10. We also have evidence from: A. The Four gospels: Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus.

B. Josephus: One famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead! The writings of Josephus as well as many of the other writings of the time all verify that there was a real man named Jesus Christ, who had a strong following, and a relatively small but devout group of Jews who were loyal to his teachings following his death who continued to cause trouble for the Roman leadership.

C:Mara Bar-Serapion: Describes how the Jews executed their King.

D. Thallus and Phlegon: Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified.

E. Pliny the Younger: He executed Christians and described how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.

G. Suetonius: he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus (Christ).

H. Lucian of Samosata: Hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man.

I. Cornelius Tacitus: Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Scholars:

1. Few scholars have questioned the existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure.

2. Scholars involved with historical Jesus research believe his existence.

3.Most contemporary scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.

4.Historians draw on scriptures, religious texts, other historical sources and archaeological evidence in an attempt to reconstruct the life of Jesus in his historical and cultural context.

5.Scholars like E.P. Sanders, Geza Vermes, John P. Meier, David Flusser, James H. Charlesworth, Raymond E. Brown, Paula Fredriksen and John Dominic Crossan have variously argued that the gospel accounts of the baptism of Jesus, his preaching, and the crucifixion of Jesus, are generally deemed to be historically authentic, while the two accounts of the nativity of Jesus, as well as certain details about the crucifixion and the resurrection, are more disputed.

6.Graham Stanton, Professor of Divinity at Cambridge University, writes that the majority of historians accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically.

7.Celsus wrote a book against the Christians, which is now only known through Origen's refutation of it. Celsus apparently accused Jesus of being a magician and a sorcerer and is quoted as saying that Jesus was a "mere man".F. F. Bruce noted that Celsus, in seeking to discredit Jesus, sought to explain his miracles rather than claim they never occurred.

8. The Acts of Pilate is purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius (thus, it would have been among the commentarii principis). It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology (c. 150) to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus. He said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the "Acts of Pontius Pilate".

9. One of earliest Christian documents - the Didache. This contains the early basic instructions, teaching and practice of the Christians. It is generally believed to be authentic, possibly written by the original Apostles and is usually dated between 50 - 120AD. This remarkable document not only mentions Jesus but states that baptism must be "into the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit."

10. His stepbrother, James, actually existed as his tomb was found. Allegedly, his tomb was identified by being said to hold the half-brother (son of Joseph and Mary, not the Holy Spirit and Mary) of Jesus.

11. Herod, the one who tried to take the Messiah out as a kid, has been proved by archaeologists to have actually existed, as well as many others.

12. There are historical records when Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate.

13. Julian the apostate (331-363 AD), the last Roman Emperor to oppose Christianity, referred to the records of Jesus' being put to death. These records must have still been available in his day.

14. Take the case of Tertullian born 155/160 AD. Tertullian is widely accepted as being a Roman citizen, well educated and well versed in the law and his text is considered genuine. In a written defense of his faith to the senate he stated, ' At His own free-will, He with a word dismissed from Him His spirit, anticipating the executioner's work. In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives. But, lo, on the third day there a was a sudden shock of earthquake, and the stone which sealed the sepulchre was rolled away, and the guard fled off in terror: without a single disciple near, the grave was found empty.... All these things Pilate did to Christ; and now in fact a Christian in his own convictions, he sent word of Him to the reigning Cæsar, who was at the time Tiberius.'

Tertullian is clearly identifying Jesus, His death, His resurrection and the darkness that fell upon the earth, and stating that a written report was submitted to the emperor by Pilate. It should also be pointed that there is not (as far as I'm aware)not one single early Roman document or reference to one in which Rome ever denied it had crucified Jesus - given the problems it faced with Christians had there been no Jesus and no crucifixion Rome would have certainly have said so.

15. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which people strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

16. The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

17. Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

18. You can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

19.There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

20. Finally--those who believe without seeing are blessed.