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Madhatter536 said...
If he was truly not looking for a confrontation, why didn't he just stay in his vehicle instead of parking and following Martin on foot? Those defending Zimmerman are grasping at straws to justify his actions and all of his actions are clearly pointed to the fact the he and he alone is responsible for starting and ending the confrontation. There is zero justification for what he did.
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Madhatter536
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shipmate said...
The fact that several houses had been robbed in that community prior to this incident, I don't think it's absurd that a neighborhood watch decided to ask an unfamiliar face what he was doing there.
I'm still waiting for the complete story, but I highly doubt the watch just went all john Wayne on this kid. He was within his right to at least ask what he was doing that's not illegal. If Martin did attack him and beat his head into the sidewalk, I would say self defense was warranted. But approaching someone and asking them what they're doing isn't a hostile act.
MSULordyoda
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MSULordyoda said...
So was the kid on private property? According to every report...no.
If you want to play the rights game, the kid had just as much right to be walking on that sidewalk as that dipshit had for trailing him.
And seriously let me ask you this...how would you feel if you were walking through a neighborhood and someone was trailing you asking what you were doing there? Wouldn't you get a bit defensive and basically tell him to go fuck himself? Or better yet, what if it were your kid? Would you be totally cool with some adult going after your kid for merely walking down the street of a neighborhood they didn't live in? I'd put 100-1 odds that if something happened even if it was just the cops showing up interrogating your kid, you'd be pissed as hell.
Think about that for a bit.
Madhatter536
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Madhatter536 said...
If you fail to see the smear campaign that is taking place to absolve Zimmerman of responsibilty for his actions, then you are walking around with blinders on. The witnesses that miraculously appear 3 weeks after the fact to corraborate Zimmerman, the authorities ignoring Martin's phone call to his girlfriend that shows Zimmerman as the aggressor, the alleged wounds Zimmerman suffered are all simply attempts to portray Martin as the sole aggressor and justify his murder. It is what I predicted would happen and is now in fact happening. Zimmerman will get away with cold blooded first degree murder because the NRA, the cops, ALEC and others will use the smear tactics against Martin to insure it. green notes alleged realities are simply the smear machine in action.
xsanguine ●
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GRR Spartan
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GRR Spartan said...
Okay.
Besides the police not taking Zimmerman's gun and clothing in for testing, checking his hands for residue, not sending him to the hospital to check his injuries from the alleged attack, not taking him to a place away from the shooting scene and just believing what Zimmerman saod verbatim is there a problem.
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xsanguine ●
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xsanguine said...
Yes, absolutely. But here's the thing. I'm an idiot, my friends will back me up on that. I frequently react stupidly in confrontational situations because I don't want that other individual to get one over on me. I'll admit that... but that's the problem...
This isn't about what I would do, what you would do. I completely agree with you. I would react the same way towards the Jewish Mexican 'pussy ass cracker' (not my words but have you seen the new fashionable t-shirts?) guy as Treyvon is alleged to have, especially if mr. rent-a-cop was following me around annoying me with questions that I feel are borderline offensive.
Is it then, however, legal of me to act the way I would act, as I've already admitted I would act; as Treyvon is alleged to have reacted?
Because once you initiate violence, you've invited violence. Again, this is only if what the media is reporting is true (that Treyvon caught up with Zimmerman, punched him, broke his nose, then got into the mount and began smashing Zimmerman's head into the concrete).
Now obviously if it comes out that the 5'9 south of the border Jewish fella came up and started smacking into the air up at the 6'3 high school football player who was just suspended for suspecting drug dealing from his high school and proceded to break Zimmerman's nose and smash his head into the concrete... I'll feel much differently.
In the end it really makes no difference. It really sucks that this kid got killed, especially over this.
Jewish fella!
LoneWolfSparty ●
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xsanguine said...
Yes, absolutely. But here's the thing. I'm an idiot, my friends will back me up on that. I frequently react stupidly in confrontational situations because I don't want that other individual to get one over on me. I'll admit that... but that's the problem...
This isn't about what I would do, what you would do. I completely agree with you. I would react the same way towards the Jewish Mexican 'pussy ass cracker' (not my words but have you seen the new fashionable t-shirts?) guy as Treyvon is alleged to have, especially if mr. rent-a-cop was following me around annoying me with questions that I feel are borderline offensive.
Is it then, however, legal of me to act the way I would act, as I've already admitted I would act; as Treyvon is alleged to have reacted?
Because once you initiate violence, you've invited violence. Again, this is only if what the media is reporting is true (that Treyvon caught up with Zimmerman, punched him, broke his nose, then got into the mount and began smashing Zimmerman's head into the concrete).
Now obviously if it comes out that the 5'9 south of the border Jewish fella came up and started smacking into the air up at the 6'3 high school football player who was just suspended for suspecting drug dealing from his high school and proceded to break Zimmerman's nose and smash his head into the concrete... I'll feel much differently.
In the end it really makes no difference. It really sucks that this kid got killed, especially over this.
GRR Spartan
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GRR Spartan said...
As to Travelin' man's "waste of taxpayer money" line. It means under circumstances where we are alone a, have an altercation, I shoot him (I got my gun and popped him first) and there is no through investigation because local law enforcement takes my word as gospel although an investigation might show my version of events was not true.
I'm not suggesting the police shouldn't investigate. But what in the blue hell do you want to test the hands, clothing, and gun for? To prove what, exactly? No shit he shot him. That's pretty much a given. He admits it and the suspect has a big ol' bullet wound. Game, set, match on that one.
Now - checking the guy's injuries to see if they're consistent with self defense, yeah, that makes sense. But to moan about not testing for GSR on the hands tells me that A) You haven't really thought this through, and B) You watch too much CSI.
TravelinMan
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MSULordyoda said...
So was the kid on private property? According to every report...no.
If you want to play the rights game, the kid had just as much right to be walking on that sidewalk as that dipshit had for trailing him.
And seriously let me ask you this...how would you feel if you were walking through a neighborhood and someone was trailing you asking what you were doing there? Wouldn't you get a bit defensive and basically tell him to go fuck himself? Or better yet, what if it were your kid? Would you be totally cool with some adult going after your kid for merely walking down the street of a neighborhood they didn't live in? I'd put 100-1 odds that if something happened even if it was just the cops showing up interrogating your kid, you'd be pissed as hell.
Think about that for a bit.
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Green Note said...
Read this in another thread:
MYTH: George Zimmerman disobeyed orders not to pursue Trayvon Martin
REALITY: After being told, "you don't have to do that," when Zimmerman answered that he was pursuing Martin, Zimmerman quit pursuing him. The 911 respondent asked because he could hear Zimmerman breathing heavily as he was running. After Zimmerman agrees to stop pursuit, his breath immediately returns to nomal. (Recordings are available on Wikipedia.)
MYTH: Martin was fleeing from Zimmerman when he was shot. Jesse Jackson alleged Martin was shot in the back of the head; former Governor Jeb Bush characterized Martin as "someone who has turned their back."
REALITY: Martin was on top of Zimmerman, pummeling his head into the concrete. Witnesses confirmed this, but police didn't need to take their word. Martin had considerable amounts of his own blood on him, having received a broken nose, and multiple lacerations to the back of the head. Zimmerman's assertion that Martin came up to him is unproven, but uncontradicted.
MYTH: Are you serious? A little kid like Martin couldn't possibly have attacked and pummeled Zimmerman!
REALITY: The photos released by the family of Martin were several years old. The "little kid" was 6-foot-three, much lighter than Zimmerman, but towering over him.
MYTH: Martin should have retreated.
REALITY: That Martin had already evaded Zimmerman is made plain by Zimmerman's call to the police. So how did they end up in another encounter? Zimmerman complained that Martin attacked him. What's the alternative theory? That Zimmerman pulled his gun on a fleeing Martin? If so, how did they end up brawling? That Zimmerman was so much faster than Martin, despite being several inches shorter and much pudgier than him, that he caught up to Martin despite Martin's fleeing? More likely, Martin waited until Zimmerman was off the phone with police, and then ambushed him, as Zimmerman alleges.
MYTH: No matter what, Zimmerman didn't need to kill Martin.
REALITY: Zimmerman's head was being smashed on the concrete. He's probably somewhat lucky he's not a drooling vegetable. Even so, Zimmerman claims the gun came out because Martin had tried to take it from him. This is consistent with the state of the gun as it was found: The chamber was empty, despite the gun being fully loaded, apart from the one round which killed Martin. This suggests that something prevented the bullet from being replaced in the chamber, as would likely have happen if Martin had been grabbing the barrel.
MYTH: Martin was just an innocent kid, who had never been in trouble.
REALITY: Martin had received a lengthy suspension from school; he was a likely drug dealer. Martin certainly didn't deserve to be killed for criminality. But he was suspended when the school found him with an empty baggie containing traces of marijuana. The fact that he was not high actually hurts his case, since it means that the marijuana was likely dealt to someone, rather than having been for personal use.
MYTH: Zimmerman was simply a racist, Republican, tea-party white supremacist with no reason to confront Martin.
REALITY: Zimmerman, an Hispanic registered Democrat, son of Virginia judge, and trained in law enforcement, was patrolling the area due to a rash of thefts. Martin was seen shortly after dark, on a warm night, wearing a darkly colored, hooded sweatshirt, not the "angel white" hoodie that's been in the press. He did not confront Martin, but did attempt to approach Martin, before Martin, at first, ran away.
MYTH: This would never have happened, if not for Florida's gun rights.
REALITY: If Zimmerman had been unarmed, maybe he would never have been so bold as to attract Martin's ire, but maybe he would have ended up dead, as that tends to happen when your head slams into concrete too many times.
MYTH: Boy, the media blew it.
REALITY: The media might not have been aware of how soundly its race-baiting narrative would be disproven, but they certainly knew Martin was no longer the little kid that he was in the photos they still use, and that Zimmerman was not the white supremacist they made him out to be. They knew that Jackson's and Bush's characterizations were false, but published them without correction. They harped on the fact that Martin was "unarmed," but made no mention of the brawl, which renders that fact senseless.
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shipmate said...
I'm not questioning martins right to walk on public property, I'm simply defending a residents right to question why someone they don't know is hanging out in their community. Even if Zimmerman was being a dick/annoying there's still no law against that.
How I FEEL is irrelevant, I'm just looking at the facts as we know them. If Martin did indeed become violent after Zimmerman was done trailing him, I fail to see how Zimmerman is at fault. Again there's no law against questioning someone, so legally I'm saying Zimmerman is clear unless other facts emerge that say different.
This post was edited by GRR Spartan on 3/27/2012 at 9:22 AM
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Black Dutch
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shipmate said...
I'm not questioning martins right to walk on public property, I'm simply defending a residents right to question why someone they don't know is hanging out in their community. Even if Zimmerman was being a dick/annoying there's still no law against that.
How I FEEL is irrelevant, I'm just looking at the facts as we know them. If Martin did indeed become violent after Zimmerman was done trailing him, I fail to see how Zimmerman is at fault. Again there's no law against questioning someone, so legally I'm saying Zimmerman is clear unless other facts emerge that say different.
MSULordyoda
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MSULordyoda said...
So you seriously think it's OK for one private citizen to approach another private citizen on a public street and ask what they are doing there?
And again, why are you immediately believing Zimmerman in this?
This post was edited by Black Dutch on 3/27/2012 at 10:08 AM
FORKS DOWN!!!
Black Dutch
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Enrico Palazzo
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Enrico Palazzo said...
he's a self appointed neighborhood watchman.
And Martin's father lived in the community. Why is Zimmerman immediately assuming Treyvon is a troublemaker? Wait, don't answer that question.
And for Black Dutch, it doesn't matter that Zimmerman was not white, half-white or whatever, the fact is he was profiling a young African-American kid and that young kid is now dead because of it.
FORKS DOWN!!!
Black Dutch
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Enrico Palazzo said...
he's a self appointed neighborhood watchman.
And Martin's father lived in the community. Why is Zimmerman immediately assuming Treyvon is a troublemaker? Wait, don't answer that question.
And for Black Dutch, it doesn't matter that Zimmerman was not white, half-white or whatever, the fact is he was profiling a young African-American kid and that young kid is now dead because of it.
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DeputyMSU said...
The women saw the aftermath of the shooting. They did not see the shooting or anything leading up to the shooting. They obviously have their facts wrong about the fight and shooting occurring in different areas...since the 911 tape from the caller a few doors down captures the sound of the fight and of the shooting.
There has been one witness who saw the actual fight and said it was Martin attacking Zimmerman. Zimmerman has injuries which indicate he was in a fight.
I think the only way you can convict Zimmerman is if you can prove he started the fight. Following someone and asking why they are in a certain spot does not constitute starting a fight.
Walter_Sanchez
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GRR Spartan said...
So far the facts are Zimmerman was an armed unofficial/official neighborhood watch guy who followed Martin, was told he could stop, didn't, got out of his car to keep following and Martin ends up dead.
Maybe if was your dead cousin, brother, nephew you wouldn't automatically think the police always get things right.
This post was edited by NigelUno on 3/27/2012 at 10:34 AM
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GRR Spartan said...
So if I think you are up to no good, follow you for a period of time and be so obvious you know you are being followed that you confront me and I fatally shoot or stab you. I'm sure your surviviors will understand I was within the law using deadly force if I accost you while we are in Florida.
In your "it was legal" world you yourself will not be safe from some person with a gun hellbent on initiating contact in some way. You can't just ignore what went on from the time Zimmerman started tracking/following the shooting victim to the time Zimmerman flips the roles, allegedly becomes the victim himself and shoots Martin.
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How in the world is Treyvon Martin's killer